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Old February 18, 2011, 05:17 PM   #1
anonimoose
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Compact Jr. 12" LOP Stock vs. Hogue 12" LOP Stock

Shooters,


ASSUMPTIONS:

1. I am committed to getting a 20-gauge shotgun* AND
2. I am committed to getting a Remington 870** AND
3. I am going to put a Limbsaver on the weapon


QUESTION:

What is the better option?

Option #1: Remington 870 Express Compact Junior
Weight: 5.75 lbs
Overall: 37.25"
LOP: 12"

OR

Option #2: Remington 870 Express Synthetic 7-Round:
Weight: 6 lbs (but other sources say 6.75 lbs)
Overall: 38.5"
LOP: 14"...but put a Hogue synthetic stock on it that reduces LOP to 12"


DISCUSSION:

The primary users of this firearm will be myself (5'5", 150 lbs) and the significant other (5'3", 115 lbs) for the purpose of home/zombie-defense. We will not be clearing rooms (where a shorter overall length and increased magazine capacity would help) nor hunting (where toting around a lighter gun all day would help). My gut instinct is that Option #2's heavier weight would soak up some of the recoil whereas Option #1's lighter weight would make it easier for the significant other to maintain a proper firing position for a longer time (she doesn't have Sarah Connor's arms). To be frank, it seems like the differences between the two options are rather minimal, but I am an obsessive planner/researcher by nature.

Thank you all.

respectfully,
Moose

*There are many excellent threads out there debating the merits of 12 gauge vs. 20 gauge, but I want to limit the focus of this thread and not re-invent the wheel/rehash the debate.

**There are many excellent threads out there debating the merits of Mossberg vs. Remington and pump vs. semi-auto, but again, want to limit the focus of this thread.
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Old February 18, 2011, 05:33 PM   #2
oneounceload
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Have you shot the shorter LOP stock to ascertain that that dimension is the correct one for you and your spouse? I see many folks who think they need to "scrunch" up on a stock and something that is basically way too short, when an extra inch or two would make the gun better fitted to the shooter - and thus more pleasant to operate, especially if you are using zombie-killer loads...

Gun FIT is paramount - it helps alleviate recoil, helps keep you on target, and makes success easier to come by.
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Old February 18, 2011, 06:10 PM   #3
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My guess is weight is immaterial to how long you can hold a shotgun on point in an HD situation, which is not likely to last long. However, that extra weight will reduce felt recoil.

You mentioned the 870 Synthetic 7 shot, which is what I have. If I were concerned with weight, I would go with the basic 5 shot with an 18.5" barrel.

Felt recoil should not be that mucy of a factor, I would think, since you are going with a 20 gauge and it will only be used for home defense. If it is used for home defense, I think you will firing a few boxes of ammunition to familarize yourself with the gun, as opposed to an avid range shooter of which some blow though hundreds of shells in a day or week. That is where felt recoil is more of a factor, I believe, The avid shooters can explain much better.

Rent or borrow an 870 with a 12" stock before making up your mind.
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Old February 18, 2011, 08:17 PM   #4
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What LOP stocks do you and your SO shoot now?
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Old February 19, 2011, 07:15 AM   #5
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Moose, I have the 870 compact jr 20ga and it will serve your purpose well. Remington made an exclusive model just for gander mtn and it has a wood 12" LOP stock and 18" barrel and removable choke. I bought one about a month ago and it has functioned perfect. Here is the link to the product.
http://www.gandermountain.com/modper...2&merchID=4006
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Old February 19, 2011, 08:33 AM   #6
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Remington's site says 5-3/4 and 6 so I think weight is a wash. The 6-3/4 number might be a loaded weight.

Option 1 has a choked barrel which increases flexibility a bit.

One other issue to think about is whether that extended mag tube on Option 2 is going to make it feel front heavy. I have a 12 ga. 870 that came with the extended mag tube. I took it off to go bird hunting (with a longer, choked barrel) and haven't put it back on. I've preferred to give up the extra 2 shell capacity in favor of better balance.

So if you've verified that the shorter LOP fits the both of you then I'd go Option 1.
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Old February 19, 2011, 04:37 PM   #7
anonimoose
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All -- thanks for the replies. From what I've learned since my original post, the Compact Jr. stock may have the same LOP (12") as the Hogue synthetic stock, but the former is smaller overall (less surface area) and thus may hit the shoulder harder. Something to consider.

oneounceload:

Quote:
Have you shot the shorter LOP stock to ascertain that that dimension is the correct one for you and your spouse?
She hasn't, but I tried the 870 Youth Stock (13" LOP) and it was great. I figure if I add the Limbsaver to either of the two options mentioned in the original post, it'll make the LOP juuust right.

Quote:
Gun FIT is paramount - it helps alleviate recoil, helps keep you on target, and makes success easier to come by.
Quote for truth.

TheKlawMan

Quote:
My guess is weight is immaterial to how long you can hold a shotgun on point in an HD situation
Agreed. However, though we wouldn't necessarily go wading all day through the wetlands hunting geese, we would still practice practice practice (or at least, I'd encourage her to do so), and I think the lighter weight would help in that regard.

zippy13

Quote:
What LOP stocks do you and your SO shoot now?
We don't shoot shotguns now -- I've started her off on the pistol and the rifle and have been trying to impart what the Marines have imparted onto me. Neither one of us is big, so in maintaining the proper shooting stance while facing the target, the shorter the longarm the better.

LilHog

This is perfect. Thanks for the link.

Kerberos

Quote:
Option 1 has a choked barrel which increases flexibility a bit.
If we're not hunting and plan to engage our targets (heaven forbid) at very short distances, will this matter?

Quote:
One other issue to think about is whether that extended mag tube on Option 2 is going to make it feel front heavy.
This is a great point. Thank you.
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Old February 19, 2011, 05:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
We don't shoot shotguns now -- I've started her off on the pistol and the rifle and have been trying to impart what the Marines have imparted onto me. Neither one of us is big, so in maintaining the proper shooting stance while facing the target, the shorter the longarm the better.
You may be under a misconception, the natural stance with a shotgun is with it at diagonal to your shoulders. With a face-on stance, your left arm is over extended to operate the action (and you maximize yourself as a target). Perhaps you should beg, borrow or rent the guns you are considering. A local gun club may have an introduction to shotguns class and provide a bevy of trial guns. Some actual trigger time before you make your selection is always a wise idea.
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Old February 19, 2011, 06:13 PM   #9
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If you will never hunt with it then chokes make pretty much no difference. The typical HD shotgun has a barrel with no choke at all. The barrel is the cylinder bore all the way out to the end. And at normal HD ranges that's just fine.
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Old February 21, 2011, 05:04 PM   #10
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zippy13

Quote:
You may be under a misconception, the natural stance with a shotgun is with it at diagonal to your shoulders.
I agree that my form is not the "traditional" stance (back foot pointed at a 90 degree angle, body bladed to the target):


However, the "combat" stance that the Marines have been teaching me squares us to the target (both feet pointed forward, which enhances mobility; body turned towards the target to take advantage of our body armor):


This is the stance that I've been trained on and what I'd like to continue to use. In such a case, the shorter LOP is essential for a smaller guy like myself.

A helpful video (got it from somewhere on these forums while researching/rooting around).

Kerberos

Thanks for the clarification.
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Old February 21, 2011, 06:15 PM   #11
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All due respect to the USMC, that scrunched up method is what I was talking about. If you go look at videos of top target shooters, you'll see a different stance that works well - shotguns are different than rifles
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Old February 22, 2011, 01:15 AM   #12
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anonimoose,

First, before I forget (again), many thanks for your service and dedication to the Corps.

I appreciate you desire to utilize your existing training in your HD preparation, it's a very logical approach. My copy of the USMC Rifle Marksmanship manual (MCRP 3-10A) starts with the familiar line: "Every Marine is first and foremost a rifleman." The fallacy is that you are trying to apply your rifle training to a shotgun. It's been my experience that trained rifleman have more difficulty learning to shoot a shotgun than someone who's never shot a long gun at all. Disciplined rifleman (like Marines) seem to have a lot of trouble learning to "loosen-up" and move the shotgun -- their training has been to maintain sight alignment while pulling the trigger. Pointing a shotgun and snapping the trigger is foreign to their training; but, the newbie has no preconceived ideas and doesn't have to unlearn previous training.

I viewed the video you linked and found it interesting, but, not very practical in some respects. While the demonstrator talked about having the shotgun squared to his feet and shoulders, in reality he advanced his left shoulder. In order to get a grip on the fore-end, he twists his shoulder (and spine) out of square from his hips.

Having your stock so short that you can't grip it with your thumb (else you get whacked in the nose) may seem tacti-cool, but impractical. Not only is it contrary to your previous training, it reduces the recoil typically absorbed by the right hand and makes the gun easier to be taken away from you.

Access to the safety selector is moot. In a HD situation, you don't want to be messing around with a safety. The safety device is your trigger finger - outside of the trigger guard is safety on, inside the guard is safety off.

The recoil demonstration was meaningless, he was comparing two different guns. If you noticed, he was very slow and deliberate while firing a single shot from each gun. Perhaps quickly emptying the magazine, on multiple targets in motion, would have been more telling. I suspect, if the demonstrator had done so, we would have seen his shoulders become less and less square with each shot.

I still recommend an introduction to shot gunning class to learn the differences between rifle and scattergun shooting. If you wish to fully utilize your existing training as a Marine rifleman for HD, perhaps an A4-type carbine would be a better choice of weapons. Good luck with your selection and be safe.
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Old February 23, 2011, 06:26 PM   #13
anonimoose
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oneouncelood

Thank you for your advice.

zippy13

Thanks for your kind words. While I am proud of my service, I'm currently stationed in sunny Arizona, and I believe the lion's share of the credit should go to those in harm's way overseas.

Quote:
The fallacy is that you are trying to apply your rifle training to a shotgun.
...
I still recommend an introduction to shot gunning class to learn the differences between rifle and scattergun shooting.
Would you be willing to provide more clarity on this? Unfortunately, most shotgun training for Marines goes to our infantryman or security/Embassy devil dogs (I'm neither). Moreover, there are no shotgun classes that I could find in the Yuma, AZ area. Finally, everything I've found in my research thus far, from a cheesy old US Army video on combat shotgun, to this school, to photos posted online from a class, suggests that the "traditional" stance should be reserved for hunting geese:


And the "combat" stance (feet/shoulders pointed forward) is the way to go:


To be frank, I just don't see the differences between the above and what I've been taught on combat marksmanship with the M16A4.

Last edited by anonimoose; February 23, 2011 at 11:34 PM.
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Old February 23, 2011, 07:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
To be frank, I just don't see the differences between the above and what I've been taught on combat marksmanship with the M16A4.
"Rifle" shooting a shotgun leads to poor swing dynamics and lots of misses on moving targets.....I am working with a friend who has about 50 years of rifle shooting that me and several others are trying to rework, but that muscle memory is working against him doing well -you CANNOT pose your feet at a 90 degree angle to a moving target and expect to hit it successfully on a regular basis

Last edited by oneounceload; February 24, 2011 at 04:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old February 23, 2011, 09:59 PM   #15
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anonimoose,

Oneounceload's experience with rifleman wanting to shoot shotguns is similar to mine. Your pic of the overalls wearing shotgunner is what we're taking about: The shooter is shooting the shotgun like a rifle, no wonder it reminds you of your training with the M16-type carbine. It goes against the rifleman's training to get the weak hand forward on the fore-end and the elbow up.

As 1-oz noted, in the "combat" stance shown, swinging the gun is awkward. (The stance is designed to stabilize a rifle, not move a shotgun.) And, it frequently results in canting the gun (and neck), too. If you've trained with the A/M4 using open sights and a protective mask, then you know shooting a canted weapon requires an adjustment in the aim point. With the rifle, you're aware of the situation and correct according. With the shotgun, most shooters aren't aware they are canting -- they know they are missing their target, but are clueless about the cause. Time after time, I've watched rifle shooters unknowingly start to roll while swinging a shotgun -- and with the roll, their follow-through is usually cut short. We're just trying to help you avoid the same problems.

Take a look a the soldier at 4:29 and 4:48 in the Army video and notice: he's got his left arm up and the gun is diagonally across his body. In the pics from the Magpul class, you'll see most of the shooters are shooting diagonally across their bodies with their elbows up, too. I didn't notice any "short" stocks used.

On a bright note, there is shotgun shooting near Yuma. Here's a link to info on the Adair Park shooting complex. John Gross, the Yuma Skeet and Trap Club contact is out of town, but I've been told you can head out there any weekend morning and talk with one of the members.
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Old February 24, 2011, 03:21 PM   #16
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oneounceload, zippy13,

Thanks for your insight. Since we're moving away from the purpose of the original thread, I propose that we move the discussion to the following thread on the differences between the rifle and shotgun.

respectfully,
Moose
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Old February 25, 2011, 03:13 AM   #17
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I have the 870 Express Compact Junior for my scrawny 13 Y/O 80 lb. kid in 20ga. It scared him at first and I had reservations. I know how much the 870 in 12 ga. used to kick me around and I am not recoil sensitive. The Remy 870 comes with an R3 recoil pad which is very effective. After teaching my son proper shooting stance he has learned to shoot it more effectively and even recently went through 60+ rounds in one afternoon. That 20 really doesn't kick that much though fear of the gun will have more effect. I am 5'5" and 155 lbs but I decided a Remy 1100 was more my style and less kicking. Any sub 7lb shotty will kick somewhat but the semis kick much less than the pumps. I do remember seeing a 200lb/ 6'+ cop return a sub 7lb Benelli M1S90 semi auto to the gunshop owner complaining about the "kick." I've shot a friends M1S90 and it swings faster due to it's light weight but it kicks almost as much as a pump. I found that teaching my son to lean forward with the recoil pad firmly on your shoulder, alleviated much of his felt recoil(I also advised him to grab the shotgun firmly).
BTW, I've shortened all my stocks to accomodate my shorter stature. 12.5" LOP for both of my 12 gauges and rifles. I'm working on doing this to my M1A but having trouble finding a smith to do it.
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Old July 27, 2012, 11:23 PM   #18
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bump.

i am going through the exact same decision.

thanks!
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Old July 28, 2012, 03:18 AM   #19
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Concentrate on what Zippy said earlier about the combat stance and why it is taught in the USMC. If you ever have a home defense situation in the middle of the night or some other time, I do not expect you will be in body armor or will have a need for mobility.
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Old July 28, 2012, 07:57 AM   #20
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Take a look at the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfH_v9rv3Js ...
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Old February 17, 2013, 10:49 PM   #21
AmigoNate
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Custom Speedfeed 12" LOP

I was looking for a 12" LOP stock. I purchased the Hogue 12". It's pretty good but I don't like the traditional form; I feel like my wrist is forced into an awkward angle. I had a Speedfeed IV Tactical stock with pistol grip that I liked, but it has close to a 14" LOP (they advertise 13" LOP, but I found it to be closer to 14"). I took a band saw to the stock and recoil pad, taking off ~1.5" from the stock and ~0.5" from the recoil pad. The holes in the stock for the recoil pad screws are parallel, so after taking off 2", the screws still thread into the same holes. This mod left the swing swivel hole on the stock, now closer to the recoil pad. It's a tad longer than the Hogue 12". Give it a try, I love it.

Careful with the top screw. I warped and cracked the stock putting that back in, as there's not much stock material around that hole. You might want to drill out a larger hole or use a smaller and/or shorter screw. My stock still retains the screw, but you should keep an eye on it and avoid unnecessary damage.








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Old February 20, 2013, 05:27 PM   #22
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Gander Mountain stocks the 12" LOP youth models. We bought one for our daughter this year when the rebate was on. If there is a G.M. close to you with a display model / one in stock, you could try it out.
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Old March 1, 2013, 08:57 PM   #23
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Ultimately shared stock length comes down to this - it is easier for a larger person to use a short stock than for a person of smaller stature to use a long stock effectively.

Speed and effectiveness in shotgunning often simply comes down to this type of delivery:

Go to 0.44 frame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMdfY...29A35&index=61
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