The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 17, 2011, 11:33 PM   #1
shooter1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 199
45 ACP Crimp

Are you guys using a taper crimp on 230gr ball ammo or no crimp at all? I have been using a slight TC with 5.2gr of 231 for range loads, and 6.3gr of Unique for 230gr golden sabers, but some say there is no reason to crimp 45ACP loads at all. Your opinions would be welcome.
shooter1911 is offline  
Old February 17, 2011, 11:37 PM   #2
DavidAGO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2008
Location: Magnolia, AR
Posts: 202
taper crimp, Because the manuals say to do so. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die as a separate step.

DavidAGO
DavidAGO is offline  
Old February 18, 2011, 12:28 AM   #3
dmazur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2007
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,310
Compared to magnum cartridges like the .357 and .44 Mag, there is no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP to prevent bullet pull on recoil. There is also no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP as it headspaces on the case mouth and this effectively "buries" the mouth of the case.

And, as most reloaders set up their equipment to create a slight "bell" to help in seating the bullet without crumpling the case, you need something to remove this bell. This is generally referred to as a "taper crimp", because there are dies designed with a gradual decreasing diameter or taper. I believe it is common practice to adjust the die so it just removes the bell. There is no need to try to crimp the case into the bullet.

If you have your equipment set up and can seat bullets without creating a bell, I suppose there is no reason to use a taper crimp to remove it.
__________________
.30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong
dmazur is offline  
Old February 19, 2011, 12:41 AM   #4
Shoney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2002
Location: Transplanted from Montana
Posts: 2,311
Quote:
taper crimp, Because the manuals say to do so.
true

Quote:
there is no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP to prevent bullet pull on recoil.
also true

Quote:
There is also no reason to roll crimp the .45 ACP as it headspaces on the case mouth and this effectively "buries" the mouth of the case.
What do you mean "buries"?

Quote:
There is no need to try to crimp the case into the bullet.
Yes there is. Many seasoned 45 ACP target shooters discovered that by applying a slight roll crimp, their velocities became more consistent, and they got higher scores.

When you shoot lead, you have to bell.
__________________
I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111
Shoney is offline  
Old February 19, 2011, 03:35 AM   #5
dmazur
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2007
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 1,310
Sierra Bullets has a series of pages on their site, and one of them covers crimping -

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sics/crimp.cfm

This covers the basics of taper vs. roll crimping. Not every possible reason for a variation in technique.

By "buries", I was trying (and failing) to describe what I've seen when someone applied a heavy roll crimp to a .45 ACP case...the case mouth is buried in the bullet. The edges are gone, not available for headspacing.

I'll admit I've never tried roll crimping .45 ACP, but I'm not too old to learn something new.
__________________
.30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong
dmazur is offline  
Old February 19, 2011, 05:27 AM   #6
Shoney
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2002
Location: Transplanted from Montana
Posts: 2,311
dmazur

When using lead bullets with a taper crimp, if the die is set to apply too much crimp, the mouth of the case will be “squeezed” into the lead. Then, while the bullet is still going down, the case shaves into, or digs under, or “buries” into the bullet.

Although technically the 45 ACP headspaces off the case mouth, as cases get shorter or are slightly roll crimped, they actually are gripped by the ejector and are held against the face of the slide for firing.
__________________
I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111
Shoney is offline  
Old February 19, 2011, 06:53 AM   #7
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,270
.469--.470", you mean?
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old February 19, 2011, 07:17 AM   #8
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,076
I use enough taper crimp to remove the bell left by the expanding die and not much more, if any.

If loading .45acp for a light revolver using heavy bullets a roll crimp might be needed.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 12:20 AM   #9
BigBob3006
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2011
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Posts: 80
shooter 1911,

I've taper crimp .45 ACP bullets since Hector was a pup. I seat my bullets so the case headspaces on the bullet. A light taper crimp is all that is needed. Works like a champ out of my Commander.
__________________
Have a nice day. Good luck and God bless.
Bob

Last edited by BigBob3006; February 23, 2011 at 08:30 PM.
BigBob3006 is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 03:10 AM   #10
Hog Buster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2009
Location: Pointe Coupee, Louisana
Posts: 763
When taper crimping lead bullets it should be done as a separate step. For that matter with any bullet. The last step done, using a Taper Crimp die only....... Viola! No lead or copper shaving, COL problems, etc.
__________________
Those who beat their guns into plows, will plow for those who don't.-Thomas Jefferson
Hog Buster is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 11:23 AM   #11
shooter1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 199
I seat my bullets so the case head spaces on the bullet.

BigBob, what does this mean.
shooter1911 is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 12:02 PM   #12
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 4,618
Quote:
I seat my bullets so the case head spaces on the bullet

What???????????? The case head is the back end of the case!

Please explain.


Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Jim243 is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 03:20 PM   #13
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 1,147
In MHO, the term "crimp" is misleading when talking about the 45 ACP. I use a taper crimp die, not to crimp the case, but to straighten out the flared case mouth. I do not need a "crimp" to hold the bullet in place, neck tension does that. On second thought, I do not crimp my 45 ACP ammo. I de-flare the case mouth...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
mikld is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 03:35 PM   #14
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,601
I don't bother with any sort of crimp with my LRN 45's. Feeds fine in my Glock. None of the factory FMJ I've bought have a crimp.

Now my 9mm is a whole other animal. If I don't use a FCD, my CZ won't get past two rounds.
chris in va is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 05:05 PM   #15
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,326
Jim243,
The answer to your question is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_%28firearms%29
g.willikers is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 05:59 PM   #16
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,412
To clarify, "headspace" is usually one word. I think you maybe caused confusion with the character space between "head" and "space" in your previous post.

I agree about headspacing lead on the bullet though. It has significantly accuracy advantage with every lead bullet load I've tried. It also seems to reduce leading. It doesn't seem to do much for jacketed bullets, but I suspect a lot of those are unseated by the primer before the powder gets up to speed, so they wind up fitting themselves to the throat. Lead bullets aren't hard enough to do that without distorting.

Headspacing on the extractor of 1911's is common. Many are loose enough and long enough in the chamber to do that. Headspacing on the case mouth was Browning's intention, but some think as few a 30% of 1911's actually do that before the extractor hook gets hold of the rim to become the defactor headspace determinant. I can't speak to the other makes.

If you go back and look at the roll-crimped rounds used by the old time match shooters (and a few modern ones), they generally allow the leading edge of the lead bullet to protrude beyond the case mouth at least 0.020" and often more. That means the cartridge actually headspaces on the bullet when it finds the throat, so the case never goes deep enough to jam the case mouth into the throat. The roll crimp does increase start pressure and consistency, but wears your cases out faster.

The taper crimp, set to dig just slightly into a lead bullet, will still leave enough mouth width for case mouth headspacing with most case brands, assuming the chamber's extractor hook doesn't stop cartridge forward insertion first. It does protect against a lubricated lead bullets getting pushed into the case (setback) while going up the loading ramp, though. That's not usually a concern with unlubed jacketed bullets because of their higher friction with brass.

__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 06:07 PM   #17
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,505
Quote:
When taper crimping lead bullets it should be done as a separate step. For that matter with any bullet. The last step done, using a Taper Crimp die only....... Viola! No lead or copper shaving, COL problems, etc.
Hmmm. This is news to me. I guess I have been doing it all wrong.

If you have your 3rd die set up properly you can seat/ crimp in one stage without any issues. If you try to overcrimp you will get lead or copper shavings.
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 08:40 PM   #18
res45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2007
Posts: 564
I think the who term crimp when it applies to the taper crimp die is a misnomer,you not actually crimping anything. The whole purpose of the taper crimp die is to remove the flair on the case mouth so it feeds and headspaces correctly.

Bullet tension on cases that headspace on the case mouth is determined by the resizing die,expander ball,case thickness and bullet diameter. I set up my taper crimp die using a FL resize case with no flair measure the case mouth dia. with a set of calipers run it up into the taper crimp die and measure again. both measurements should be the same or no more than .002 smaller.

I set up my built in taper or roll crimp dies to seat and crimp on the same stroke,done it that way for 30 years shooting lead,plated and jacketed bullets with no issue.
res45 is offline  
Old February 20, 2011, 08:59 PM   #19
grubbylabs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2009
Location: Hansen Idaho
Posts: 1,442
I manage to crimp and seat my 45 auto and my 44 mag without a 4th die. My 45 is a very slight crimp and I cast my own and I don't have any issues with razor burn. I also apply a heavy crimp on my 44 mag and .444 without any shaving issues. Yest it takes a minute to set up right but it works.
__________________
* (Swinging club) Whack! whack! whack! *

Nope, the old nag's still dead .
(Capt Charlie)
grubbylabs is offline  
Old February 21, 2011, 08:45 PM   #20
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,412
Res45,

I'll respectfully disagree where lubricated lead bullets are concerned. What you describe is fine for jacketed bullets, but lubricated lead can sometimes be pushed deeper into a case by thumb pressure alone. Particularly if the case brand is one with thinner walls, like R-P. In that instance you want the top end of the taper to just slightly bite into the lead to help prevent setback into the case when the slide slams the round into the feed ramp and around the corner into the chamber. It doesn't need to be much. A couple thousandths makes quite a difference. As long as the case mouth doesn't get below minimum mouth OD spec it will still be able to headspace on the mouth (though I normally headspace lead bullets on the bullet finding the throat rather than on the case mouth; accuracy is improved and leading is reduced by this practice and it renders case mouth OD irrelevant).

The main reason for separate crimping is accuracy. When the separate crimp dies started showing up in 70's, a number of match shooters compared rounds crimped by the seating die crimp groove to those crimped separately and found the latter performed more consistently. It got to the point that if they used a round no commercial crimp dies was made for, they'd buy a second seater and pull out the seating stem and use that for crimping (this was mainly revolver shooters).

I don't know the reason for the above being true other than maybe it lets the cartridge center in the crimp ring better if a seating stem doesn't have hold of the bullet nose. Maybe it also is less prone to building up crud in the seater.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old February 21, 2011, 10:43 PM   #21
zplinker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2011
Location: way out here
Posts: 111
Any time you can seat and crimp separately, you will have more uniform rounds. Dillon Precision dies only come that way...and for a reason. Now does that translate to more points in a match? Thats pretty hard to quantify. But I've only been trying for 25 years.
zplinker is offline  
Old February 21, 2011, 11:52 PM   #22
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 1,505
I have never been able to push a lead bullet back into the case by finger pressure alone. I guess we can all do it our own ways and RESPECTFULLY (I really like this term...2 thumbs up to you UncleNick) agree to disagree!
__________________
~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~

~NRA LIFE MEMBER~
~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~
IllinoisCoyoteHunter is offline  
Old February 22, 2011, 01:32 AM   #23
ma96782
Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2000
Posts: 51
Taper crimp with pistol rounds.

Roll crimp with revolver rounds.

Aloha, Mark
ma96782 is offline  
Old February 22, 2011, 09:14 AM   #24
BigBob3006
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2011
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Posts: 80
Jim243,

The .45 ACP headspaces on the mouth of the case to the face of the case. That's all well and good if all your cases are the same length and that length is .898". I've found that very few .45 ACP cases are that S.A.A.M.I. spesified length. So I make my loads fit the pistol, pretty much the same thing we do with rifle, only its much easier to do with the pistol case.

1) Remove the barrel from the weapon. This is our gage to headspace.
For purpose of education, slip a few cases into the chamber. Hold the
barrel vertical. Your gage is the back of the barrel shroud. Where does
the face of the case come in relation to the back of that shroud. If the
head of the case is lower than the shourd your case is to short. If the
If the case sticks up longer than the shroud your case is to
long and you may have trouble going into battery.

2) Now adjust your seatting die, seat a bullet into the case.
slip the case into the barrel and verify that the face of the
case is the same length as the shroud. You may not get the
bullets outof the case, so use old cases and resize them.
seat about four cases and verify their length with a bullet seated.


3) Set your crimping die a little longer and and crimp one case, then
try it in barrel again. Does the crimping die actually crimp the case?
And is the headspace still correct? If The case is to long again this is
caused by the crimp being excessice. Back it out a 1/4 of a turn and
try it again with a third case.

That is all that it takes. Before you jump in and load a bunch of cases.
try those four cases in your magazines. Pull the slide back and release it.
do the feed OK. Do they strip from the magazine.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't really. It also seems to help with the accuracy department as well.
__________________
Have a nice day. Good luck and God bless.
Bob
BigBob3006 is offline  
Old February 22, 2011, 09:24 AM   #25
BigBob3006
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2011
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Posts: 80
Please excxuse the double post. I must have a little tired and my fat fingers were running hog wild.
__________________
Have a nice day. Good luck and God bless.
Bob

Last edited by BigBob3006; February 23, 2011 at 12:57 AM.
BigBob3006 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12834 seconds with 7 queries