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Old February 14, 2011, 11:40 PM   #26
Bill Akins
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My point is that SASS stands for "Single Action Shooting Society" and I do not believe the 1911 semi-auto pistol is in the same single action category as a standard single action revolver that has to have its hammer manually cocked for each and every shot. It simply is not mechanically logical to say they are both single actions. One is single action all the time (the revolver) and the other is single action only for its very first shot (the 1911 semi-auto). The revolver deserves to be called a single action because it is single action all the time. But does the semi-auto 1911 deserve to be called a single action when it only is single action for the very first shot and does not require a manually cocking of the hammer for each succeeding shot?

People aren't understanding my point and are letting their ideas of what comprises a so called single action semi-auto vs a so called double action semi-auto cloud their minds as to what my point is.

Yes there are semi-auto pistols that today are termed as single action semi-autos as is the 1911. But previously they never had to be categorized as "single action autos" until the double action trigger semi-autos came out.
Until then, they were just semi-auto pistols period.

The so called double action semi auto pistol is only double action for the first shot. After that you do not manually re-cock the hammer because that is automatically done by the recoil. It isn't double action on the second shot and it isn't really single action on the second shot either because you did not have to manually cock the hammer. What it actually is....is a semi-auto pistol that trigger cocks the hammer for the first shot and afterwards is operated by a combination of recoil ejecting the spent cartridge and reloading and cocking the hammer with the shooter pulling the trigger to drop the hammer. But it is not double action after the first shot and it isn't single action after the first shot either because you aren't thumbing back the hammer manually.

I guess you could say it is a semi-auto pistol that is double action on the first shot only. But these descriptions take too long to say so it has been incorrectly coined a double action semi-auto even though it does not double action for each shot like a double action revolver can. (I am not talking about double action only semi-autos in this instance, those ARE true double action semi-autos because the hammer is manually cocked each time by the human.) That describes the often misnamed so called "double action" semi-automatic.

Now for the so called "single action" semi-automatic.

If we agree that a normal single action revolver is one where you have to thumb back the hammer for each shot, then we would have to agree that a single action semi-auto pistol shooter would have to thumb back the hammer for each shot also. This is only true with the 1911 on the very first shot. After that the shooter does not thumb back the hammer manually because the recoil does that after that first shot was fired.

So does the fact that the first shot only is done in a single action mode qualify the pistol to be called a "single action" when every shot after that first one did not require the shooter to manually re-cock the hammer as he would have to do on a standard single action revolver? To properly categorize the 1911 pistol, it would have to be called "a single action on the first shot only and afterwards just a semi-automatic pistol".

But like in so many other things in our language, a description of an item is actually a shortened misnomer to make it easy to quickly describe it even if that description is incorrect!

If someone wants to believe and think of a 1911 semi-auto pistol as being single action all the time. That's up to them. But it isn't. It is only single action for the very first shot. After that it is neither a single action nor a double action. What it becomes after the first shot is a semi-automatic pistol. Not single action and not double action. At least not in the sense of what is considered single action in having to thumb back the hammer manually for each and every shot in a standard single action revolver which is the whole reason SASS was formed in the first place.

If you agree that the Single Action Shooting Society (SASS) was formed and is dedicated to single action only shooting, then you have to wonder why SASS allows double action revolvers and semi-auto 1911 pistols in their matches.

Hawg had it right. They don't follow their reason for forming nor their own rules. They seem to make it up as they go along. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but if they are going to act like they have rules, then stick to single action only shooting and lose the double action revolvers and semi-automatics. Otherwise it's like the Mexican bandit in "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" on the badges. "Rules? Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!"

Bottom line to me is...if you don't have to thumb back the hammer for each and every shot, it isn't a single action revolver or pistol. Otherwise we have to create one terminology category for single action revolvers that are single action for each and every shot, ....and then create another terminology category for so called single action semi-auto pistols that are actually only single action for the first shot only. See what I mean?

All the above is just my opinion anyway. Other's may differ. Perhaps the problem is incorrect semantic terminology in our language. But sometimes terminology is important. Just like calling a clip a magazine and a magazine a clip when they are not the same thing. Or like calling a revolver a pistol when it is not. Just as a single action all the time revolver and a single action for the first shot only 1911 are not the same thing either. It may not seem too important to not term it correctly, but it is still incorrect. Not wanting to argue. Just to present a point.


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; February 15, 2011 at 12:54 AM.
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Old February 15, 2011, 12:09 AM   #27
OutlawJoseyWales
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Wow Bill, you certainly like to type.
No offense meant by that, by the way.

Anyway, I didn't notice that you were from Hudson until just that moment.
In a strange small world, I live a little over an hour away. East...of course, an hour west I would be on my way to what? Corpus Christi?
Ain't that a hoot?

Didn't mean to upset you with my comment about the 1911, I can see your points, lots of them.
My unimportant point was trying to say that the reason that category exists is the movie. And reading the book, to top it off, the guys who started the thing called themselves the "Wild Bunch."
So, in honor of themselves maybe, I don't know-they started that category.

I guess it doesn't fit, but the whole thing is fantasy anyway, but certainly looks like a lot of fun. I'm not a member but have seen the matches.
Have not have enough: money, time, nor opportunity to join in.

Enjoy your posts.
OJW
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Old February 15, 2011, 12:30 AM   #28
Bill Akins
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Thanks Josey. No offense taken. You didn't upset me. I just wanted you to know that SASS category is very much about using the semi-auto 1911 pistol and not just about the movie. Because without them using the 1911, there would be no reason for them to have the "Wild bunch" category. Since single action revolvers and 1897 slide action shotguns can be used in the normal "cowboy" categories. The only thing the SASS "Wild bunch" category has that is different, is the semi-auto 1911.

Hey, I know of another shooter by the handle of Josey Wales whose wife's handle is Guns-n-lipstick. Are you that same Josey Wales?


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; February 16, 2011 at 03:23 AM.
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Old February 15, 2011, 12:44 AM   #29
OutlawJoseyWales
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Bill, I sent you a pm
Didn't want to hijack on my first day, the PTB, might get after me or something.
Enjoy the posts.
OJW
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Old February 15, 2011, 06:42 AM   #30
Hawg
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The Wild Bunch is a side match just as long range is. SASS doesn't allow any double action revolver. They do allow single actions that originally came either SA or DA.
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Old February 15, 2011, 07:08 AM   #31
B.L.E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Akins
Yes there are semi-auto pistols that today are termed as single action semi-autos as is the 1911. But previously they never had to be categorized as "single action autos" until the double action trigger semi-autos came out.
Until then, they were just semi-auto pistols period.
You are correct, "single action semiauto" is a retronym for what used to simply be called a semiauto pistol.
However, before the double action revolver was invented, there was no such thing as a "single action revolver", they were simply called revolvers. The term "single action" did not exist until the double action revolver was invented.
Thus the term "single action revolver" is just as much a retronym as "single action semiauto" is.

Other retronyms in common use:
hardball
analog watch
World War I
black powder
accoustic guitar
manual transmission
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Old February 15, 2011, 11:45 AM   #32
Noz
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I like the idea of the
"Early 1900s Re-enactment Shooting Society"


I agree wholeheartedly that the 1911 does not fit into SASS
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Old February 15, 2011, 01:09 PM   #33
Model-P
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Retronyms

VERY interesting, Bill and B.L.E.! Thanks.
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Old February 16, 2011, 01:13 AM   #34
arcticap
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And all of this time I thought that the "Single" part of the SASS stood for one's marital status!

Last edited by arcticap; February 16, 2011 at 01:22 AM.
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Old February 16, 2011, 07:40 AM   #35
B.L.E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcticap
And all of this time I thought that the "Single" part of the SASS stood for one's marital status!
One reason I kind of dropped out of SASS was because it was threatening to make me single.
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Old February 16, 2011, 07:46 AM   #36
Bill Akins
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How would it be categorized if single and dating two ladies? Would that be "single action" or more correctly "double action single action"? And if your car wasn't running too good on your dates, would that be "semi auto single action double action"?


.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; February 16, 2011 at 08:45 AM.
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Old February 16, 2011, 10:27 AM   #37
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That might be more easily characterized as "dangerous"!

And you thought that a chainfire was bad...
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