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Old June 28, 2012, 05:15 PM   #2426
BGutzman
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I never really watched CSPAN until all this and I must say it is both enlightening and frightening to see some of the factors at play. I am glad this wasnt a simple party line vote with a few crossing the line, the numbers speak pretty well..

Mr. Holder Im sure will get his pardon one day but the truth it seems is actually going to come out at some point.
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Old June 28, 2012, 06:51 PM   #2427
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Have all the people who voted Holder in contempt also called for his resignation?

I don't think so, and I don't quite understand that.
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Old June 28, 2012, 08:34 PM   #2428
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It appears that although 17 Democrats voted for contempt (the graded vote) only 4 voted for the resolution to sue in civil court for the documents. Likewise the two Republicans who voted against (OH and VA) contempt voted for the civil suit according to the WSJ.

And in other strange news, former NRA Board of Director (and AWB supporter) John Dingell-D accused Issa of being politically motivated and defended Holder on the House floor. Dingell, who is the original source of the "jack-booted thugs" comment as applied to ATF, apparently thinks Holder is A-OK.
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Old June 28, 2012, 08:42 PM   #2429
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An attorney with whom I work raised an interesting point: The House voted in favor of criminal contempt. Had it been civil contempt, then the contempt could have been purged by Holder's delivery of the subpoenaed documents, assuming that I recall the distinction between criminal and civil contempt correctly. IOW, because this is criminal contempt and not civil, turning over the documents will not purge the contempt. In that case, will the documents be turned over?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old June 28, 2012, 09:00 PM   #2430
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In that case, will the documents be turned over?
We may never see them. At this point, the administration has circled its wagons, and while the contempt vote feels good, it won't have any teeth unless they can find someone to actually enforce it.

What they should be doing is finding a way to charge Newell, Gillette, or Voth. Let one of them twist a bit and see if they talk.
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Old June 28, 2012, 09:23 PM   #2431
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I am pretty apolitical.

All this bad behavior is really starting to annoy me.
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Old June 28, 2012, 11:52 PM   #2432
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At the risk of repeating the already mentioned AG Eric Holder, as I understand, has been cited for both civil and criminal contempt of congress. What happens now is, I suppose, anyone’s guess, however a press conference held by Holder sounded interesting as with the following.

He described the process, by which he was cited as a politically inspired witch hunt, and I believe went on to offer that the American people deserve better. I agree, the people of this country deserve better than they have had with respect to their constitutional rights from both the AG and The President. I suspect Mr. Holder would disagree, as did New York Democratic Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, in her remarks. People are entitled to their own opinions.

As to congressional investigations into Operation Fast & Furious being politically motivated, as Holder offered, possibly so, but he conveniently overlooks the following. How might the Democrats have reacted to the same sort of stupid stunt carried forth by a Republican AG and a Republican President? I suspect we would be seeing the same performance from the Democrats. As to the legitimate interests of the people of this country, they appear to come in dead last, if they even get out of the starting gate. In any case, Operation F & F violated the laws of the U.S. As well as the laws of Mexico, no mention of this from AG Holder, whose remaining days in office are few in number, it likely turning out to be “under the bus with him”.

As to the political aspects of the thing, something else unmentioned by Holder is the following. Undermining The Second Amendment, along with a restoration of the so-called Assault Weapons Ban constitutes the hearts desire of this administration, being a long sought political goal. Neither seems to have worked so far, I’m happy to note, but the aforementioned are plainly political goals of the AG and the Obama Administration. With this in mind, Holder’s complaint about a congressional citation of contempt against him being “political” rings kind of hollow to my perhaps jaundiced ear.

So as noted at the outset, I haven’t the proverbial clue as to how this business will turn out. As for criminal contempt, can you imagine the U.S. Attorney for Washington, D.C., Holder being his or her boss proceeding to arrest the AG, I cannot, but perhaps my imagination is overly limited. As to congress taking the AG to court, via the filing of a civil action against him, that too might be something of a hoot, though stranger things have happened, or could happen.

At the end of the thing, it all strikes me as rather sad, for with respect to the bone headed operation that Fast & Furious was, an remains, a lot of “stuff” could have been avoided if Holder, the DOJ and I will add The Whitehouse had played it straight, instead of doubling down on what was a very bad bet. It is a shame that they lied, double-talked and of course that they “doubled down” on what in retrospect was, a very bad bet.

In conclusion, while some of the foregoing might be “off topic”, the following question comes to mind. The president, at one point in his career, taught constitutional law. I wonder how well he taught something that he seemingly had/has so little respect for.
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Old June 29, 2012, 12:30 AM   #2433
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In conclusion, while some of the foregoing might be “off topic”, the following question comes to mind. The president, at one point in his career, taught constitutional law. I wonder how well he taught something that he seemingly had/has so little respect for.
He claims to have taught it. Perhaps he did. NOBODY claims he was good at it.
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Old June 29, 2012, 07:26 AM   #2434
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As for criminal contempt, can you imagine the U.S. Attorney for Washington, D.C., Holder being his or her boss proceeding to arrest the AG, I cannot, but perhaps my imagination is overly limited. As to congress taking the AG to court, via the filing of a civil action against him, that too might be something of a hoot, though stranger things have happened, or could happen.
We're in uncharted waters here. The US Attorney has the power to prosecute Holder, but he also has discretion on the matter. I really doubt he's going to pursue it.

As far as the civil side of things, it could take years.

In neither case does Congress really have a way to compel him to produce the documents in a reasonable amount of time. Given the invocation of Executive Privilege, it doesn't look like there's any pressure from the top.

So, basically, we just got treated to a day of political theater and little more.
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Old June 29, 2012, 10:51 AM   #2435
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This entire fiasco appears to get sadder by the minute.
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Old June 29, 2012, 10:52 AM   #2436
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"So, basically, we just got treated to a day of political theater and little more."
Seemingly. Not much else to be done and at least the yes voters did the right thing. May have some minor impact in November.
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Old June 29, 2012, 11:26 AM   #2437
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jmortimer wrote:

"So, basically, we just got treated to a day of political theater and little more."
Seemingly. Not much else to be done and at least the yes voters did the right thing. May have some minor impact in November.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Who knows what November will bring. The impact of the elections might well be a lot more than "minor"
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Old June 29, 2012, 03:18 PM   #2438
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CBS is reporting that Holder will not be prosecuted. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...-for-contempt/
Disappointing, but not surprising. One would think there would be a remedy for such a clear conflict of interest (prosecuting your boss).

Unless some ATF/DOJ/etc person with inside info is willing to blow the whistle again, I think the traction the investigators had has just about vanished.
It's unlikely the American people will know the truth within the next few years, if at all.
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Old June 29, 2012, 04:06 PM   #2439
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I wonder if the congress will defund the office of the AG?
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Old June 29, 2012, 05:43 PM   #2440
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Hopefully one issue that can get resolved prior to the election is to force DOJ to produce a privilege log showing what documents are being withheld. So far DOJ has declined to do that.

I am guessing DOJ hasn't done it because they don't know what Issa has and don't want to get caught not providing relevant documents OR get caught providing relevant docs that Issa doesn't know about.
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Old June 29, 2012, 09:17 PM   #2441
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Hopefully one issue that can get resolved prior to the election is to force DOJ to produce a privilege log showing what documents are being withheld.
Is there a method, beyond contempt charges, that can be used to force DOJ's hand?
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Old June 29, 2012, 09:21 PM   #2442
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Impeachment, or defunding.
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Old June 29, 2012, 09:57 PM   #2443
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Impeachment, or defunding.
Unfortunately, neither of those methods can be effectively brought to bear before the election eclipses all of this.
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Old June 30, 2012, 01:48 AM   #2444
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I'm a long time follower of TFL but a first time poster. I have followed this thread as well as David Cadrea's "Journalist's Guide to Project Gunrunner" from the beginning. I haven't seen any updates of Cadrea's since May 5....has he possibly been asked to back off or am I just missing something.

Also, Did anyone catch Jason Chaffetz interview on Gretta Van Susterens' show where he admitted they have more whistleblower evidence they have not released yet and they are not going to back down?
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Old June 30, 2012, 09:39 AM   #2445
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Unfortunately, neither of those methods can be effectively brought to bear before the election eclipses all of this.
Does that really matter?

Nixon won while the investigation into Watergate dragged on.
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Old June 30, 2012, 12:41 PM   #2446
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For a guy who successfully prosecuted two democrat congressmen for corruption, why Holder would continue to stonewall F&F is kind of puzzling.
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Old June 30, 2012, 02:34 PM   #2447
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It's not all that puzzling...

This time, it's his butt on the line. Even the most zealous prosecutor generally draws the line at sending himself to jail.
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Old June 30, 2012, 05:03 PM   #2448
Bartholomew Roberts
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Is there a method, beyond contempt charges, that can be used to force DOJ's hand?
.

I can't think of a better one than the contempt charges. Typically in a lawsuit you have to provide a privilege log to claim privilege. It is just a question of when that happens.
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Old June 30, 2012, 10:33 PM   #2449
alan
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Bartholomew Roberts quoted and wrote as follows:
Quote:
Is there a method, beyond contempt charges, that can be used to force DOJ's hand?
.

I can't think of a better one than the contempt charges. Typically in a lawsuit you have to provide a privilege log to claim privilege. It is just a question of when that happens.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm NOT an attorney, nor am I trained/educated in the law. That having been said, and regarding "a better one than contempt charges", what of the following: accessory to murder. I suspect that it would be a long shot, but it might prove attention getting.
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Old June 30, 2012, 10:45 PM   #2450
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That having been said, and regarding "a better one than contempt charges", what of the following: accessory to murder.
I suppose we could call up someone in Justice to...DRAT!

Therein lies our problem.
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