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Old June 27, 2012, 10:21 AM   #2401
Luger_carbine
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I think the article in Fortune magazine will encourage other news publications to start taking a serious look at F&F. When reporters from Forbes, Wall Street Journal and Businessweek start delving into the whole story more - it's just more of an opportunity for the truth to come out.

Quote:
The appointees did not plan Fast and Furious: They approved a flawed plan concocted by career bureaucrats of the BATFE. F&F was planned in the Phoenix office of the BATFE by many of the same folks who ran Wider Receiver.
IMO Dennis Burke was part of the group that conceived F&F. He was an appointeee. There is even some rumors now that Andrew J. Shapiro / United States Assistant Secretary of State, was involved in the initial discussions - supposedly focusing on numbers and percentages of U.S. weapons found at crime scenes. And Lanny Breuer is an appointee right?
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Old June 27, 2012, 10:23 AM   #2402
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Surely they have to realize that continually bringing up Wide Receiver is eventually going to lead to a comparison between the program and Fast and Furious is going to look even worse when that happens?
+1

If Operation Wide Receiver was stupid then Fast and Furious was even more stupider.
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Old June 27, 2012, 12:10 PM   #2403
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I gave it a glance and vote for politically convenient smokescreen.
Same here. Voth has been pretty silent and he's kept his job as a result. Why come out now?

If this is an unsubstantiated political witch-hunt on Grassley's part, why have the Acting Director of the ATF and the US Attorney for Arizona stepped down?

Good try, but no cigar.
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Old June 27, 2012, 12:43 PM   #2404
Bartholomew Roberts
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It's a long arduous read but very insightful. It is either a smoking gun about political intrigue or one of the best constructed smokescreens in the history of a free press. The timing of this article is "too coincidental to be coincidental", considering the vote on Holder. I have to wonder if somebody was holding this back for just the right moment.
There are some interesting insights into the details buried in there; but overall the report seems biased and poorly structured. The reporter in question interviewed David Voth; but practically noone else - unsurprisingly, David Voth (who oversaw Fast and Furious) turns out to be the hero, with agents Newell and McAlister in supporting roles. The reporter cites that she reviewed 2,000 confidential ATF documents (compared to 7,600 reviewed by the Oversight Committee and 80,000 turned over to the DOJ IG).

From these she basically concludes that the ATF never intentionally walked guns, that the NRA is to blame, that John Dodson did intentionally walk guns (not sure how she squared this with #1 in her mind; but not the only example of contradictory information).

From my perspective, the most interesting part of the story is that she lays the blame for ATF being hamstrung at the feet of Emory Hurley and Dennis Burke. According to her version of the story, basically no amount of evidence was sufficient for them to prosecute and without a prosecutor's approval, ATF agents could not seize weapons. So for example, when the guy on food stamps bought $300,000 worth of guns in a few months, and the prosecutors did not find this suffiicient probable cause, ATF could do nothing. In fact, Burke had dropped Jaime Avila (the man who purchased the guns that were found at Agent Terry's murder) from the indictment for Fast and Furious for lack of evidence. He was only added back to the indictment after Terry's death (and convicted on the same evidence deemed lacking).

One of the many problems I had with this story is that the reporter continually used subjective adjectives (weak, ineffective) to describe gun laws or penalties for violating them; but didn't share the actual laws with the reader. For example, she states there is no federal firearms law for trafficking firearms; but she doesn't tell the reader that it is illegal to knowingly transfer a firearm to a prohibited person (nor does she mention how FBI rigged the NICS system to sell directly to prohibited people). She tells the reader about straw purchasing very loosely but says the penalties are "weak." She doesn't tell the reader that you can get up to 10 years in a federal prison for it. She blames the NRA for not allowing "a centralized database of firearms sales (i.e. registration), which tends to make her bias a bit apparent to me.

Finally, she points out that Dennis Burke (1994 AWB staffer who in a 1997 interview called stricter gun laws his most proud achievement at that point in his life) and Emory Hurley (his assistant) repeatedly refused attempts to prosecute the straw purchasers in theses cases. In fact, they didn't even indict for six months after agents had made an argument to close the case. She accuses them of being too friendly with "gun culture." She also points out that the target of the case was an FBI informant funding the purchases with FBI money. Yet somehow she reaches the conclusion that the claims that Fast and Furious was being used to drum up support for increased gun control is "far-fetched" - even though the Administration did exactly that as a result.

One of the few interesting points she brings up is her article highlights the importance of the wiretap applications. It appears that in an effort to provide enough proof that Burke or Hurley would prosecute, the ATF proposed to wiretap the straw purchasers in order to provide the requisite evidence of intent (one guy directing another guy to buy for him). However, despite the fact that wiretaps in other cities were being processed in 24 hours, these wiretaps were taking weeks or months - and within a week of the first one being approved, the subject switched to a new phone, causing the whole process to restart.

All in all, the reporter who wrote that story strikes me as biased and generally ignorant about guns and Fast and Furious. She heard one side of the case; but other than making a token effort to contact the other 7 agents on the case (all of whom declined to be interviewed), she didn't try to get or even tell the other side of the story.
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Old June 27, 2012, 02:05 PM   #2405
publius42
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The new propaganda piece ignores a critical thing about Voth:

His relationship with gun dealers. For a guy who knew absolutely nothing about any guns walking, there were some interesting email exchanges. For example:

Quote:
The emails refer to meetings between the FFL and the U.S. Attorney‟s office to
address the concerns being raised by the FFL. ATF supervisor David Voth wrote on
April 13, 2010:


I understand that the frequency with which some individuals under
investigation by our office have been purchasing firearms from your
business has caused concerns for you. … However, if it helps put you at
ease we (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of
investigative techniques which I cannot go into [in] detail.1


In response, the gun dealer expresses concern about potential future liability and sought
something in writing to address the issue explicitly:


For us, we were hoping to put together something like a letter of
understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us
down the road for selling these items. We just want to make sure we are
cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to bad guys.2


Following this email, the ATF arranged a meeting between the FFL and the U.S.
Attorney‟s office. According to the FFL, the U.S. Attorney‟s office scheduled a follow-up
meeting with the FFL, but asked that the FFL‟s attorney not be present.3 <_<


At the meeting on May 13, 2010, the U.S. Attorney‟s office declined to provide
anything in writing but assured the gun dealer in even stronger terms that there were
safeguards in place to prevent further distribution of the weapons after being purchased
from his business.4 As we now know, those assurances proved to be untrue. On June
17, 2010, the gun dealer wrote to the ATF to again express concerns after seeing a report
on Fox News about firearms and the border:

The segment, if the information was correct, is disturbing to me. When
you, [the Assistant U.S. Attorney], and I met on May 13th, I shared my
concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the
firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF
agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of
the bad guys. … I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk
of agents‟ safety because I have some very close friends that are U.S.
Border Patrol agents in southern AZ[.]5

Incredibly, the FFL sent this email six months before guns from the same ATF operation
were found at the scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry‟s murder. So, not only were
the ATF agents who later blew the whistle predicting that this operation would end in
tragedy, so were the gun dealers—even as ATF urged them to make the sales.
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Old June 27, 2012, 03:19 PM   #2406
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Quote:
Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII.
One of the reasons they create a OCDETF (task force) is to prevent something like this from happening.

I think sometimes I get so caught up in the conspiracy scheming and political scheming that I overlook the gross incompetence.
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Old June 27, 2012, 03:24 PM   #2407
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The information has been covered by a few of the media but not many. Those that DO 'report' on it usually make it worse than just ignoring it; they spin it the way BO/Holder want it spun. Meaning they take the WH line that it's just a Republican "political witch hunt" and assure us F&F was all just a continuation of the previous administration - which it clearly was not.

The fact that there was NO effort made to track some 2.000+ improperly bought guns by known straw buyers on the BATF's specific say-so, and who then denied their own field officers permission to even try to follow them. There was NO BATF/DoJ coordination with Mexican law as Bush had done, NO concern for the Mexican lives that would certainly be lost and NO effort to warn our own Border Patrol of a tidal wave of illegal weapons was heading their way. All that should have some effect on our "news media" but it doesn't, at least until now when there's a supposed 'political witch hunt' on for po' ol' Holder's head. (How do you think they would be reporting F&F if all those dead had occured on Bush's watch?)

Well, FOX News IS reporting it, and fairly regularly. But even they keep calling it a 'gun tracking program gone wrong." Fact is, it "went wrong" because it started wrong, it was designed only for political antigun purposes and it was never a gun "tracking program".

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Old June 27, 2012, 03:34 PM   #2408
Luger_carbine
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Maybe more truth comes out of Eban's article than she ever intended.

Like the tactic of letting guns walk - Dennis Burke's behavior makes no sense if they were trying to incarcerate straw purchasers.

On the other hand, if the intent was merely to have guns pile up at crime scenes - Burke's behavior does make sense.
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Old June 27, 2012, 03:58 PM   #2409
Bartholomew Roberts
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I think Luger_carbine is thinking along the same lines I was reading Eban's piece.

In related news, 4 of the 31 Democrats who signed the letter calling for Holder to turn over the Fast and Furious information have indicated they will vote for the contempt resolution:
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/23...r-in-contempt-

Interestingly enough, Rep. Collin Peterson (MN-D) is voting for the measure even though his seat is considered safe this election. Most of the other Dems voting in support are in borderline districts where the constituency is upset. Nice to see someone value integrity above party loyalty.
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Old June 27, 2012, 03:59 PM   #2410
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"...if the intent was merely to have guns pile up at crime scenes - Burke's behavior does make sense."
Exactly
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Old June 27, 2012, 04:32 PM   #2411
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Quote:
Nice to see someone value integrity above party loyalty.
I don't know if it's about integrity, so much as it is about self-preservation. Democrats in swing districts are going to be feeling the heat on a number of fronts this November, and a favorable NRA grade can go a way towards ameliorating that.

I was pleasantly surprised to see one of my state's Democratic Representatives say he'll be voting for contempt.
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Old June 27, 2012, 05:27 PM   #2412
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
I don't know if it's about integrity, so much as it is about self-preservation.
I imagine it is for a lot of them; but The Hill mentions that Peterson's district is considered safe, so it appears he has some other motivation. I prefer to believe integrity, though I imagine the Presidential campaign declining to contribute to the reelection campaigns of Dem Reps and Senators this year probably did not help shore up the Administration's support on controversial issues.
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Old June 27, 2012, 06:40 PM   #2413
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So, the gurus on MSNBC totally by the Fortune article as an exoneration of Holder and the ATF. They also think the fear that the administration is antigun is paranoid. There is some questioning of why, if the exculpatory report is so clear, that the DOJ couldn't come up with this before and Fortune had to. Holder's buddy says that is because the DOJ works very slowly and carefully. They buy that rather than the article is BS.

Holder stated he wanted to redo the AWB - he was shut down by the Pres. for political reasons. But Representatives voting for contempt for political reasons vs. gun sporters are bad. Thus, the Pres. must be bad for shutting up Holder.

Just amazing turns in logic.
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Old June 27, 2012, 07:57 PM   #2414
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Quote:
I think sometimes I get so caught up in the conspiracy scheming and political scheming that I overlook the gross incompetence.
Never ascribe to guile and chicanery that which can be readily explained by sloth and stupidity! -- Griff's Law
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Old June 27, 2012, 10:24 PM   #2415
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Quote:
Never ascribe to guile and chicanery that which can be readily explained by sloth and stupidity! -- Griff's Law
Griff, you're taking credit for another man's work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon
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Old June 27, 2012, 11:02 PM   #2416
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I have been writing on other forums, (POLITICAL and News) over the past few weeks. Most of my work has been comparing F&F with Watergate.

I see the Obama Administration using the same arguments and tactics that Nixon used in his defense of Watergate.

With the claim of Executive Privilege, My belief that the White House was deeply involved in the F&F operation has been strengthened.

To me it is inconceivable that the disparate and often conflicted agency's needed to allow this operation to proceed could have reached agreement without "adult supervision from the President." Those agencies include, but not limited to, the AG, Sect of State and Sect of Homeland Security. The AG had to be involved to get the FBI on board with the ATF.
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Old June 27, 2012, 11:04 PM   #2417
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Quote:
Griff, you're taking credit for another man's work:
Huh! I've heard of the general concept before, but hadn't heard it expressed as such. Great (?) minds think alike!
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Old June 27, 2012, 11:18 PM   #2418
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Quote:
To me it is inconceivable that the disparate and often conflicted agency's needed to allow this operation to proceed could have reached agreement without "adult supervision from the President." Those agencies include, but not limited to, the AG, Sect of State and Sect of Homeland Security. The AG had to be involved to get the FBI on board with the ATF.
And Hillary is the only one smart enough to keep her mouth shut. Obama, Holder, and Napolitano have all lied about it. Holder and Napolitano lied under oath.
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Old June 28, 2012, 12:23 PM   #2419
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An article appearing in today's edition of The Pittsb8urgh Post-Gazette, page A-10 thereof, makes interesting reading, said article headlined Agent who started "Fast and Furious" defends ATF gunrunning operation. The agent referenced turns out to be none other than William D. Newell, onetime head of the ATF office in Phoenix Az.

The article was by-lined The Washington Post, which precluded it's appearing at the P-G's on-line edition, and no date for it's publication in the Post is indicated. Readers who come upon a hard copy of The P-G might take a moment and read the article, which whitewashes AG Holder and The White House. Re Mr. Newell's comments, the following comes to mind. Liar, liar, pants on fire.
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Old June 28, 2012, 12:41 PM   #2420
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Quote:
An article appearing in today's edition of The Pittsb8urgh Post-Gazette, page A-10 thereof, makes interesting reading, said article headlined Agent who started "Fast and Furious" defends ATF gunrunning operation. The agent referenced turns out to be none other than William D. Newell, onetime head of the ATF office in Phoenix Az.
In a Washington Post article; BATFE SAC William D. Newell, the arch architect of Fast and Furious and the man who ran the operation, defended his decision to run guns into Mexico:

The Wash Post link went bad. Heres another link:

http://www.pressherald.com/news/nati...012-06-28.html

Quote:
But in the eyes of the man who started and oversaw Fast and Furious, the operation remains an example of smart law enforcement — an approach that has simply been misunderstood.

“It was the only way to dismantle an entire firearms-trafficking ring and stop the thousands of guns flowing to Mexico,” said William D. Newell, a veteran federal agent who spent five years as the head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix.
Newell is a lonely man: No one defends him.

Last edited by thallub; June 28, 2012 at 01:09 PM.
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Old June 28, 2012, 01:16 PM   #2421
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If Newell had dismantled anything, he might have an excuse for the multiple felonies perped by himself and others in handling the firearms, and for the management up the chain in sanctioning this conduct, then trying to hide it.

As it is, he can write all the self-acquittals he wants. Nothing changes. Obama, Holder, Napolitano all want to pretend there is nothing to see, and the determination which they have displayed to keep the **** buried indeed defines it as a ****, a bad one, with Newell's prints all over it.

In this life or the next, accounts will be settled.
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Old June 28, 2012, 01:40 PM   #2422
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Newell is not even entitled to the Adolph Eichmann defense: "I was only following orders".

Last edited by thallub; June 28, 2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Old June 28, 2012, 03:15 PM   #2423
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What gets me is that Napolitano, Holder, Obama, and Hillary, have not even provided any "fake" outrage over a program which dumped firearms into a foreign nation without their knowledge or approval. Unless of course, they had knowledge and had at least given tacit approval or stayed out of it all together for specific reasons. Napolitano, when first called in to testify to congress, was asked if she had contacted BP Agent Terry's family, to which she had to sheepishly reply, "No." He worked in her organization. He was killed as a result of a program which she SHOULD have been notified about, as the head of Homeland Security. Yet, she takes no action to contact his family to offer any apologies or condolences. I suspect she knew exactly what was going on. Once it broke open, she hid in the shadows as much as she could. Hillary hasn't said BOO about it, though she was crowing about "illegal" weapons flowing into Mexico and how that must be stopped. Well, Hillary, what have you to say now? (Crickets chirping).
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Old June 28, 2012, 03:50 PM   #2424
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Holder held in contempt of Congress. 2 Republicans voted "No", 17 Democrats voted "Yes", 109 Dems abstained/did not vote.

Roll Call Vote #441: http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.aspx

255-67 (1 voted Present, 109 Not Voting)

The "No" votes are:

Baldwin
Barber
Berkley
Berman
Bishop (NY)
Blumenauer
Bonamici
Braley (IA)
Capps
Cohen
Connolly (VA)
Cooper
Costello
Courtney
Cuellar
DeFazio
DeLauro
Deutch
Dicks
Dingell
Doggett
Eshoo
Farr
Green, Gene
Heinrich
Higgins
Himes
Hirono
Holden
Holt
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
LaTourette
Loebsack
Lofgren, Zoe
Luján
Lynch
McDermott
McNerney
Michaud
Miller (NC)
Miller, George
Moran
Murphy (CT)
Nadler
Pastor (AZ)
Perlmutter
Quigley
Rigell
Rothman (NJ)
Ryan (OH)
Sanchez, Loretta
Schrader
Schwartz
Sherman
Shuler
Slaughter
Smith (WA)
Speier
Sutton
Thompson (CA)
Tierney
Tsongas
Visclosky
Wasserman Schultz
Waxman
Welch
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Old June 28, 2012, 04:17 PM   #2425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
One of the many problems I had with this story is that the reporter continually used subjective adjectives (weak, ineffective) to describe gun laws or penalties for violating them; but didn't share the actual laws with the reader. For example, she states there is no federal firearms law for trafficking firearms; but she doesn't tell the reader that it is illegal to knowingly transfer a firearm to a prohibited person (nor does she mention how FBI rigged the NICS system to sell directly to prohibited people). She tells the reader about straw purchasing very loosely but says the penalties are "weak." She doesn't tell the reader that you can get up to 10 years in a federal prison for it. She blames the NRA for not allowing "a centralized database of firearms sales (i.e. registration), which tends to make her bias a bit apparent to me.
And I assume that's technically up to ten years per count, so a guy who acted as a straw buyer for 20 guns could (in theory) be facing 200 years if convicted on all counts and the sentences were imposed to run consecutively rather than concurrently ...
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