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Old June 24, 2012, 10:16 PM   #2351
Aguila Blanca
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I don't think the focus has really shifted. It's a known fact that Brian Terry was killed. It's a known fact that he was killed by a firearm that the BATFE knowingly allowed to be sold to an ineligible purchaser and smuggled across the border into Mexico. But ...

What is NOT yet known is exactly who is responsible for the operation. Yeah, we know who some of the players were, but who actually ordered it, who actually gave it the official go-ahead, and who knew about it and failed to stop it who should have stopped it?

Those are valid questions that directly pertain to closing the books on what led to Brian Terry's death. Those questions have not been answered, in large part, because the DOJ has lied and then stonewalled.
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:31 PM   #2352
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Issa stated publicly today that he believes that the POTUS was not involved at all in the operation or cover up.
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Old June 24, 2012, 11:48 PM   #2353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
Issa stated publicly today that he believes that the POTUS was not involved at all in the operation or cover up.
Believe what you want. If he has nothing to hide, why would Obama invoke executive privilege? Remember, Issa needs to get enough votes to slap the AG on the wrist. Consider that a statement saying he doesn't "believe" the President is involved may be a cover to help sway a few swing votes.
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Old June 25, 2012, 12:54 AM   #2354
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I've also learned that F&F comes across much differently if you're watching CNN or CBS (and other media outlets) versus Fox News.

I think you can listen to Fox News and think that the focus has shifted but if you get news about F&F from other news websites, you can't even tell what the focus is.

Nancy Pelosi is saying that the contempt vote is about the GOP supressing votes and it's the AG's job to uphold people's civil rights. By trumping up contempt charges - they're trying to cut him off at the knees do they can continue to strip people of their right to vote.

I know it sounds crazy - but if you listened to the latest CBS story on it - that's the focus.
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:19 AM   #2355
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Bill Maher had Rachel Maddow and Nick Gillespie on his show where Maher admitted he didn't know anything about F&F until this week. Talk about being out of touch.

Maddow and Gillespie locked horns on F&F because she is convinced that Wide Receiver and F&F were both Bush era programs and that the Obama administration merely continued the programs. She apparently knows nothing of the two year lapse between them. She is a glittering jewel of colossal ignorance on this subject and facts will not deter her.

Knowing the caliber of audience that Maher has it would be no wonder that people would believe the two programs were related based on Maddow's rantings.

VIDEO LINK

The panel on "This Week" was better on the facts and had a better balance of guests.

VIDEO LINK
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:22 AM   #2356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luger_carbine View Post
I've also learned that F&F comes across much differently if you're watching CNN or CBS (and other media outlets) versus Fox News.
Sharyl Atkisson has done a bang-up job of covering this case on CBS.
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:40 AM   #2357
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Congressman Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) gave a passionate speech about why Holder should be charged with contempt and why F+F is such a huge scandal. You can see the video in the link below (recommended)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma72HQRMRdA

That Pelosi is trying to muddy the water and dilute support for Issa's work is par for the course. It's called Politics. I am surprised by her insipid "conspiracy theory" however. It would have evaporated in a flash if Holder had agreed to turn over the documents and Pelosi would look even sillier.

Congressman Gowdy did have some other comments about Pelosi's statement.
Among other things he called it mind-numbingly stupid.
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:44 AM   #2358
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And notice how Pelosi tried to deflect the case against Holder by stating he was being targeted because he is against those who want to have "voter suppression".

They are running for the tall grass.
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Old June 25, 2012, 04:08 AM   #2359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT TL
Quote:
^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia
You can't. At least not on certain topics considered political. A super editor goes back in and reinvents history. They have re-invented their own 1984 over there.
I have to disagree. After an earlier discussion in this thread, I edited part of the "ATF gunwalking scandal" article on Wikipedia and my edits remain intact.

The truth about Wikipedia articles is that a lot of people make edits that are biased and lack adequate supporting documentation. Such edits are routinely replaced by other biased and poorly-supported edits in a nearly never-ending cycle. Edits that are unbiased and strongly supported are either left alone or quickly restored if someone tries to over-write them with junk.
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Old June 25, 2012, 07:10 AM   #2360
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Watched the committee contempt hearing on TV yesterday. Also watched Issa and his Democrat counterpart.

Burke, the federal prosecutor for AZ, lied to the family of Brian Terry about the source of guns found at the murder scene. Someone high in the DOJ repeated that lie to Issas committee: Maybe it was the DOJ spokesman. That lie was not corrected for many months. Issa wants to get to the source of that lie.

Burke is a long time anti-gunner and cohort of Rahm Emanuel. He was a co-architect of the AWB. Prior to being appointed federal prosecutor Burke had worked for Napolitano when she was US AG. He also worked for her in the office of the AZ governor and at Homeland Security.

There were actually three F&F guns found at the Brian Terry murder scene; one was an SKS that disappeared from the radar. Some sources say the FBI hid knowledge of that gun because it was run by one of their "national security assets" in the drug cartel/s.

BTW: That awful "liberal" CBS broke that story.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html

Quote:

By Sharyl Attkisson Topics News ,Law and Order .
(Credit: CBS/AP) Updated 5:09 pm, Sept. 19, 2011 with comment from the Office of the Inspector General

WASHINGTON - CBS News has obtained secretly recorded conversations that raise questions as to whether some evidence is being withheld in the murder of a Border Patrol agent.


The tapes were recorded approximately mid-March 2011 by the primary gun dealer cooperating with ATF in its "Fast and Furious" operation: Andre Howard, owner of Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Arizona. He's talking with the lead case ATF case agent Hope MacAllister.
Political loyalty is everything, if the tables were turned; the current majority party in the house would be defending their AG.

Last edited by Al Norris; June 25, 2012 at 07:55 AM. Reason: Redacted for copyright violation
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:12 AM   #2361
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Quote:
Political loyalty is everything, if the tables were turned; the current majority party in the house would be defending their AG.
The House leadership probably would, but I really doubt every single republican member of the Oversight Committee would ignore the evidence and testimony and defend "their guy"
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:48 AM   #2362
Bartholomew Roberts
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Issa stated publicly today that he believes that the POTUS was not involved at all in the operation or cover up.
I read an interview with Issa in The Hill where he stated that he did not have any evidence the White House was involved in the cover up. Are you saying that Issa said he does not believe the White House is involved? Because "I can't prove it" and "I don't believe it" are two different statements.

I've been reading some interesting commentary from liberal websites who appear to believe that claiming executive privilege is a mistake. The Daily Show lampooned the Administration's decision, the New York Times even editorialized against it, and Rep. Elijah Cummings, who hasn't been all that helpful in actually investigating was telling The Hill that "Congress has a duty to get those documents from Holder."

Issa appears confident he has the votes (bipartisan even) to support the contempt citation on the House floor.

Quote:
Political loyalty is everything, if the tables were turned; the current majority party in the house would be defending their AG.
The Valerie Plame/Scooter Libby investigation took place with a Republican House and Senate and a Republican President. I think right now the Administration is enjoying the benefit of widespread ignorance about Fast and Furious by the American public. However, their decision to claim executive privilege is bringing that to the public's attention - and once the public begins to understand the American government was giving guns to Mexican drug cartels, I think you will see Democratic Represenatatives and Senators press for investigation much like what happened with Plame.
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:53 AM   #2363
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Issa appears confident he has the votes (bipartisan even) to support the contempt citation on the House floor.
But that doesn't get Rep. Issa the documents, does it? Since the Executive Privilege card has been played, another hurdle must be cleared. At least what I've read here points that way.
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Old June 25, 2012, 09:55 AM   #2364
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I believe the President invoking Executive Privilege has moved this from a back burner issue that was destined to be a almost non-issue to being the new "Watergate".

The invoking of the Privilege almost certainly means than both Mr. Holder and Mr. Obama had knowledge of the operation as that as I understand it is a requirement of invoking executive privilege... So basically they are both admitting on some level that they have lied in previous statements that they knew nothing about the operation while it was in active operation.

This is now a issue that has suddenly gained legs and could potentially result in impeachment... If factually it is now proven the administration did know about this operation and allowed to continue to operate then we need to be gravely concerned... It would mean this administration did place lives on both sides of the border as being less important than achieving encroachments on the 2A. It would mean the administration felt gun control was more important than protecting life.
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Old June 25, 2012, 10:42 AM   #2365
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jimpeel And notice how Pelosi tried to deflect the case against Holder by stating he was being targeted because he is against those who want to have "voter suppression".

They are running for the tall grass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim's closing might be a most reasonable estimate of the situation.
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Old June 25, 2012, 10:49 AM   #2366
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jimpeel noted:

Bill Maher had Rachel Maddow and Nick Gillespie on his show where Maher admitted he didn't know anything about F&F until this week. Talk about being out of touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re Mr. Maher having been included amongst those described as "opinion leaders", correct me if I'm wrong here, one wonders as to where he has been hiding, re his "not knowing anything about F & F until this week".
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Old June 25, 2012, 12:42 PM   #2367
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Quote:
Re Mr. Maher having been included amongst those described as "opinion leaders", correct me if I'm wrong here, one wonders as to where he has been hiding, re his "not knowing anything about F & F until this week".
Perhaps the AG's office?

I was watching CNN yesterday, when they had some lady (missed her name) ranting about how the AG had already turned over all the documents concerned with the running of F&F. Talk about wanting to scream at the TV!
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Old June 25, 2012, 01:54 PM   #2368
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Quote:
I was watching CNN yesterday, when they had some lady (missed her name) ranting about how the AG had already turned over all the documents concerned with the running of F&F. Talk about wanting to scream at the TV!
This seems to be yet another talking point which attempts to create the "witch hunt" scenario that the dems would so love to have the American public buy into. Elijah Cummings made similar statements, saying that all of the documents regarding the operation and who was involved had been given to Issa, but the documents Issa wants deal with the communications after the program had already ended. This seems to be an attempt to say, "Congress already knows everything that happened during Fast and Furious, but now they are trying to politically damage Holder and Obama by searching for any little tidbit of "gotcha politics" in the communications between DOJ officials, and maybe the White House, regarding the program, but after the fact".

I'm not sure that will be successful, but it may help organizations such as the Huffington Post and other media outlets supporting Obama which need talking points on this for the media circus which is starting to develop.
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Old June 25, 2012, 02:06 PM   #2369
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It's a long read, but is very informative as to the what, how and why of F&F: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...rew-c-mccarthy
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Old June 25, 2012, 04:27 PM   #2370
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From the National Review article:

Quote:
Why go through all of this detail? Because the Obama administration has offered a palpably false narrative about Fast and Furious. It is this: Acting on their own, recklessly irresponsible ATF agents in Arizona — under the ostensible direction of the local U.S. attorney, who was actually asleep at the switch — dreamed up the Fast and Furious investigation, with its rogue “gunwalking” tactic.
Issa says Fast and Furious was the brainchild of the career bureaucrats in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. They sold the program to the US attorney for AZ, Dennis Burke and up the BATFE chain. It makes sense that Fast and Furious originated in the Phoenix office: Newell, the SAC of the Phoenix office had walked guns into Mexico under Wide Receiver.

See Issas memo to his committee dated 3 May, 2012, page 4:

Quote:
Having been encouraged to devise grander strategies to stop the transfers
of weapons to Mexican drug cartels, the Phoenix based agents devised a strategy that went beyond simple arrests or weapons confiscations. They would allow the U.S.-based associates of a Mexican drug cartel to continue acquiring firearms uninterrupted. In doing so, they hoped the weapons, after they were recovered at crime scenes in Mexico, could be traced and linked to cartel operatives including possible high-level financiers, suppliers, and possibly even king-pins.
Dennis Burke had long been a subordinate of Napolitano. Theres a good chance Napolitano knew about F&F: Good chance Holder knew about F&F. Proving it may be another matter.

Last edited by thallub; June 25, 2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old June 25, 2012, 04:50 PM   #2371
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Quote:
The Valerie Plame/Scooter Libby investigation took place with a Republican House and Senate and a Republican President.
Yes.

The last congressional investigation took place with a Democrat house and senate: Bush took executive privilege.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6031574&page=1

Quote:
October 14, 2008

President Bush sidetracked a congressional probe by wrongly invoking executive privilege, according to a draft bipartisan congressional report released today.

This June, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee served a subpoena to the Justice Department for reports of interviews between FBI agents and Bush and Cheney.
Richard Artmitage later fessed up to burning Valerie Plame:


http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-1981433.html

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Old June 25, 2012, 05:59 PM   #2372
Bartholomew Roberts
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The last congressional investigation took place with a Democrat house and senate: Bush took executive privilege.
Someone pointed out that they believed that party loyalty was a bigger factor in these investigations. As contrary evidence I was pointing out that the Plame investigation was begun by a Republican Congress against a Republican President.

In the example you refer to, the subpoena wasn't issued until June 2007, after the Democrats had the House and Senate. The subpoena sought an interview of the Special Prosecutor of VP Cheney in an attempt to prove the Plame scandal went higher than Scooter Libby. Bush claimed Executive Privilege to block this. I am not sure if Congress ever received the transcript; but a watchdog group called CREW sued the U.S. to release it, and ironically the Obama Administration DOJ took the position that the transcript was protected by Executive Privilege (which again goes to show that it isn't all about political loyalty).

They lost that fight though and the transcript was released. For that matter, the Bush Administration ended up caving on most of the Executive Privilege assertions it did make as far as I can find - Karl Rove did testify to Congress (post election) as did Miers and Mukasey. So I would say that bodes well for the chances of the Oversight Committee to get the documents it wants to see.

Quote:
Richard Artmitage later fessed up to burning Valerie Plame
Off topic; but according to Michael Isikoff's book on the subject, Armitage didn't know Plame was a covert operative - thus the reason he wasn't prosecuted by Fitzgerald.

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Old June 25, 2012, 06:08 PM   #2373
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Quote:
So I would say that bodes well for the chances of the Oversight Committee to get the documents it wants to see.
Methinks you are correct. In most cases where executive privilege is claimed and a contempt citation issued, a deal is made to produce the documents.
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Old June 25, 2012, 06:36 PM   #2374
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Even though he does so in a humorous way, even Jon Stewart gets it when it comes to F&F.

VIDEO LINK

So a comedian gets it while others who claim to be serious political analysts are only learning of this scandalous debacle this week; and then the likes of Nancy Pelosi try to spin the contempt citation into a racist rant against Republicans so she can deflect the story away from those who are just beginning to understand its importance.

<sigh>

They will even try to cover up and mitigate the murder of a border patrol agent in their quest to retain power.
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Old June 25, 2012, 08:25 PM   #2375
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Apparently, way back in Summer 2011 when Ken Melson decided to testify on his own, he testified that after reading the wiretap affidavits, he realized that the DOJ letter to Congress was wrong and sent an email to "senior DOJ officials" warning them to back off the initial response to Sen. Grassley. DOJ did not retract the letter until December 2011.

This is one of the emails Congress has requested that has not been provided by DOJ yet. It sounds like the Oversight Committee may have given Holder enough rope to wind it around his neck a few times.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/25/at...ant-shield-it/
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