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Old June 23, 2012, 07:35 PM   #2326
alan
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jimpeel:

Re your reference to Obama's 2007 comment to Larry King, have you forgotten the old saw about "it depends on whose ox is being gored".

Obviously, here and now It's Obama's Ox, spelled "good friend" ergo things change.

That typo should not have gotten past me, sorry.

Last edited by alan; June 23, 2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old June 23, 2012, 07:41 PM   #2327
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mooney1el:

I guess it depends on whose friend or friends sit where. Here, it's a good friend of Obama's who is the "CEO", and I personally very much doubt that Obama will fire him, though he might be persuaded to, having discovered "urgent family matters/concerns" resign. "He" being the AG, in case anyone was wondering.

Last edited by alan; June 23, 2012 at 09:11 PM.
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Old June 23, 2012, 08:42 PM   #2328
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Since the DOJ has been a consummate failure in the operation known as Fast and Furious, shouldn't the buck stop at the top?
That's the problem. Had the administration acted earlier, they could have staved off the blowback. Now they own it.

I'm going to sound like a real jerk here, but if I were President, here's how I'd have handled it.

February 2011: I'd have called Holder in. I'd have asked what the heck was going on in the Phoenix field division and if the allegations had any truth. If they did, I'd have told him to fire Chait, Voth, and Newell and throw them to the wolves.

(Don't worry, they'd all get pardons in January once the whole thing blew over)

Having established scapegoats, I'd have given a speech about "isolated rogue elements," highlighting what a Man of Action I am and how I'd make it a personal mission to uproot such corruption and incompetence in the future. Then I'd have called Dennis Burke and made darn sure any incriminating documents were destroyed.


If the above sounds cynical, well, that's politics. But this administration couldn't even get that right, and their backpedaling and procrastination have led to to a worse result.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:10 PM   #2329
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Tom Servo:

Might the "something else" you mentioned be a constitutional confrontation?
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:20 PM   #2330
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Tom Servo:

I'm getting sloppy, apologies.

My brief comment should have referenced your"worse result". In any event, what we now have is the "worse result" you mentioned.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:36 PM   #2331
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Then I'd have called Dennis Burke and made darn sure any incriminating documents were destroyed.
Whats wrong with firing Burke, You hired him you can fire him.
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Old June 23, 2012, 09:51 PM   #2332
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Whats wrong with firing Burke, You hired him you can fire him.
Because you'd still want someone around to take the fall if things didn't go as planned. Insulation comes in layers.
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Old June 24, 2012, 12:32 AM   #2333
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Rahm Emanual is looking like a prophet now.

He hated Eric Holder and he and Axelrod always thought Holder was a danger to Barack winning a second term. Holder views (viewed ?) himself as an activist AG. Some of Holder's comments about closing Guantanimo, insisting Khalid Sheikh Mohammed be tried in civilian court... Rahm the politician saw these as risky to Barack.

I've heard that Holder and Obama are friends and their wives are close friends but I can't beleive the president would precipitate an EP showdown over being BFFs.

I don't think jetisoning Eric Holder would damage his presidency so much that he'd definately lose the election, although I think he'll lose anyway. Hitting the eject button on Holder now won't make F&F go away - like someone said - the fact that Americans got killed because of this nonsense - it's going to hang around and smell like dead fish.

IMO there probably is something in those documents that would sink his reelection bid.

I wish I could hear the conversations between Rahm and Barack now...
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:34 AM   #2334
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I do not discount the loss of American LEO life in the least.It is tragic.

What I believe is being under emphasized....in many ways,is the loss of life on the border and in Mexico.

I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.

It is under reported by our press,but as much violence goes on there as occurs in Iraq or Afghanistan.

If you look in the right places,on the internet you can find images of piles of bodies,rows of decapitated heads,etc.

Remember,many of us believe the point of F+F was to create outrage over murder,violence,terror in Mexico from guns sold by USA gun dealers irresponsibly or unlawfully.This outrage would justify change.

Lets not forget,lets empasize,these gun dealers WERE responsible,and DID their duty to report to the BATF that a suspicious transaction was in the works.The BATF told the dealers to make the sales.

The same Mexican citizens are dead.The same violence and terror has taken place.Lets not allow this to only be about the two American LEOs.

The outrage,the blood,the suffering that F+F was to smear on the USA gun dealers DID OCCUR.

The accountability for those murders,kidnappings,etc must not be ignored.This issue needs to be relentlessly pursued,and whoever is accountable needs to also be held accountable for the violence in Mexico.

That is what they wanted to do with the gun dealers,and,it is right to do,just get the right people;Those responsible for F+F.

For all the political rhetoric that is spoken about immigration and humanitarian regard for the people of Mexico,

it cannot be ignored the intent of the 2000 lost weapons was to create massive death and terror,international outrage,in Mexico.

The lie,the cold,cynical disregard for the suffering in Mexico,this calculated "collateral damage" for an "ends justify the means" political strategy must be clearly identified,and regardless of which admistrations or who can be accountable,they need to be recognized ,and perhaps they owe a criminal debt to the people of Mexico.

Last edited by HiBC; June 24, 2012 at 10:46 AM.
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:56 AM   #2335
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Holder and Obama are of one mind regarding how to deal with 2A rights. There's little doubt in my mind that this would blow back onto the Oval Office in a detrimental way, though I wouldn't venture to guess tht the president was aware of the program from the biginning.

The big question is whether throwing Holder under the bus now would be enough to derail the process, and whether Holder is a stand-up guy like Gordon Liddy, willing to take the fall and the blame to save his buddy the POTUS.

Holder knows he's got seven months or so to catch a presidential pardon, but of course he can't be pardoned until he's charged with something. The timing is really messed up for poor Mr Obama. It will be interesting to watch this play out.
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Old June 24, 2012, 10:59 AM   #2336
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I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.
The drug cartels can get all the full auto weapons they want.

The idea they would be all that interested in US semi-auto guns is (at best) a joke.
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Old June 24, 2012, 11:59 AM   #2337
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So,brickeye,are you suggesting that none of the 2000 weapons have been used by the cartels or anyone else to cause death and terror among Mexican nationals?

I do not understand your point.

Are they not just as dead from a semi-auto? Or do the cartels turn their nose up at the semi-autos and chop saw them?Or do they give them to the Nuevo Laredo Neighborhood Watch program?

What,then,is the story behind agent Terry's death?Wasn't it a F+F gun?

My point is that the lives of the people in Mexico count,too,not just agent Terry.

And those behind the F+F program are responsible for the blood in Mexico,also.

And the blood in Mexico is the same color as the blood in USA,and the people shed the same tears.

IMO,I cannot find anything but cold,cynical lies in someone who,on one day,can send AK-47's into another country to create outrage through death,then the next day can offer immigration reform as a humanitarian gesture.

Choose your friends wisely

Last edited by HiBC; June 24, 2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old June 24, 2012, 12:12 PM   #2338
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Having established scapegoats, I'd have given a speech about "isolated rogue elements," highlighting what a Man of Action I am and how I'd make it a personal mission to uproot such corruption and incompetence in the future. Then I'd have called Dennis Burke and made darn sure any incriminating documents were destroyed.
That works in 1982, not so well 30 years later. The problem is in today's day and age you can never be certain that all the documents are destroyed. Especially if the people involved were doing something shady. Someone is going to keep a copy of something telling them to do something that is questionable to prevent them from being thrown under the bus just as you described.

So now we have these cat and mouse games instead.

If Obama kept Holder for personal reasons than that might sink the whole boat.
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Old June 24, 2012, 01:54 PM   #2339
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I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.
The Mexican elite politicos don't much care either...

Instead of demanding extradition so the perpatrators can face justice Mexican President Calderon instead cow tows to the Obama administration and calls for assault weapon ban in US instead.

How many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons?

I'm guessing roughly ¼ the number of Mexicans who have been killed by the weapons that dissapear out of Mexican arms rooms or come with deserters who defect from the National Army to the go on the payrolls of the cartels. Most of those weapons come from the Direct Purchase program. The U.S. gives money to Mexico, the Mexican Army spends it on purchasing U.S. Weapons, a good percentage of those weapons make it to the cartels.

I've only seen one or two reports on that.
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Old June 24, 2012, 02:17 PM   #2340
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Fast and Furious guns in Mexico; click on Joint Committees Report:

http://oversight.house.gov/report/th...rtel-violence/
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Old June 24, 2012, 03:36 PM   #2341
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Re the antics of DOJ head AG Holder, the president's declaration of Executive Privilege, the antics of the BATFE, and also referencing a discussion on Essential Public Radio, possibly heard by some, the following is a copy of my Letter To The Editor of one of my local papers, that being The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. My thoughts/comments might be of interest to some here. It is unlikely that the P-G will publish my letter, their quota system being one reason. The following was written 21 June.

Editor:

Re the above referenced, in no particular order, the thoughts follow:

1. Respecting claims by the BATFE that Operation Fast & Furious was intended to pinpoint "drug cartel kingpins" ridiculous is an appropriate description, given that the BATFE had no such capabilities. There was no way this agency could possibly track the "walked guns" to drug cartel kingpins.

2. As to guns themselves, the world is awash with real AK-47's, as opposed to the pale imitations thereof sold in this country, by federally licensed gun dealers. Real AK-47's have selective fire capability, the defining characteristic of a class of arms described as "assault rifles". The guns commercially sold in this country lack selective fire capability, being simply semi-automatic rifles, a type of arm manufactured and sold in this country since prior to The First World War, Interestingly media, re it's frequent references to "assault rifles" and "assault weapons" is strangely "fast and loose" with technical terminology, one wonders why.

3. Given existing world conditions, combined with the fact that the Mexican Drug Cartel has more cash than it knows what to do with, they could easily obtain virtually any type of light or heavy automatic firearms they desired, plus Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG's), by the plane load, possibly even by the shipload, which raises the following question. Why would they bother arranging the purchase, in dribs and drabs, of pale imitations of guns the world is literally awash in? The answer is that, being reasonably intelligent people, they wouldn't. On the other hand, a runaway government agency, the BATFE, at the behest of a historically anti gun president and attorney general would. Via this Operation Fast & Furious, which Obama et al are trying to paper over, they did.

4. With his declaration of Executive Privilege, the president tries to provide political cover to his beleaguered friend, and Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. Combined with his other problems, the economy, continued high levels of unemployment/underemployment, the lack of prosecution of banking and Wall Street criminals, yes there are a few exceptions here, this Executive Privilege business might turn out to be one of his dumber mover. Additionally, re his references to declarations of Executive Privilege by other presidents, Nixon's declaration didn't hold water, other presidents have declared Executive Privilege. Notwithstanding the perhaps questionable nature of previous declarations, none of them involved such blatant criminality as is involved here. Remember that Operation Fast & Furious violated both U.S. and Mexican law, something that President Obama might prefer not to be reminded of.
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Old June 24, 2012, 04:08 PM   #2342
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I wonder how many decent ,law abiding citizens who fell in the disfavor of the drug cartels have been killed by the 2000 lost weapons.
I heard on the radio just this past Friday an estimated 200 Mexican civilians (that in no way shape or form were related to the drug cartels) lost their lives because of the guns allowed to enter their country from the USA. I have no idea how they came up with that number, but it was reported as such.

If I was President of Mexico, I would be demanding an explanation from the USA. I wouldn’t get one I’m sure, but I’d still be asking.
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Old June 24, 2012, 05:13 PM   #2343
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2. As to guns themselves, the world is awash with real AK-47's, as opposed to the pale imitations thereof sold in this country, by federally licensed gun dealers. Real AK-47's have selective fire capability, the defining characteristic of a class of arms described as "assault rifles". The guns commercially sold in this country lack selective fire capability, being simply semi-automatic rifles, a type of arm manufactured and sold in this country since prior to The First World War, Interestingly media, re it's frequent references to "assault rifles" and "assault weapons" is strangely "fast and loose" with technical terminology, one wonders why.

3. Given existing world conditions, combined with the fact that the Mexican Drug Cartel has more cash than it knows what to do with, they could easily obtain virtually any type of light or heavy automatic firearms they desired, plus Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPG's), by the plane load, possibly even by the shipload, which raises the following question. Why would they bother arranging the purchase, in dribs and drabs, of pale imitations of guns the world is literally awash in? The answer is that, being reasonably intelligent people, they wouldn't. On the other hand, a runaway government agency, the BATFE, at the behest of a historically anti gun president and attorney general would. Via this Operation Fast & Furious, which Obama et al are trying to paper over, they did.
Those are pretty weak arguments. Not all drug gangs are equal and they are constantly warring with each other. It would make a lot of sense for one gang to be able to buy a ship load of guns from Venezuela while another would be forced to pay a premium for SA guns from the US. I have never even heard of a conflict where both sides held exactly the same armament, used the same supply chain, etc. much less a gang war.
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Old June 24, 2012, 05:30 PM   #2344
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MTT TL:

You characterized paragraphs 2 & 3 of my letter as "pretty weak arguments". You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I submit though, that your opinion is incorrect.
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Old June 24, 2012, 06:03 PM   #2345
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Two issues have been raised this past week which need some thought:

1) How could Holder stop an operation in December when he testified that he did not know about it until the following March.

2) A former Secret Service Agent, currently running for Congress, told FOX news that some of the Gun Runner weapons ended up in New York. (Apparently, NY tracks the origin of ceased guns) The candidate stated that his contacts in the BATF report that the flow of illegal guns to NY changed from the South East Corridor (assume) VA to Arizona during that Gun Runner was Active.

I speculate that, if the Candidate is correct, the DOJ has recognized this fact and that guns they allowed to walk ended up being used in crimes in the US. The Body count could go from two LEOs to a bunch of innocent citizens.

Last edited by ltc444; June 24, 2012 at 06:14 PM. Reason: modify
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Old June 24, 2012, 06:32 PM   #2346
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It is my understanding that "Project GunRunner" is different than Operation "Wide Receiver" and operation "Fast and Furious" was yet another iteration with more lax controls. Gun running is different than gun walking according to the testimony of Janet Napolitano as I recall.
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Old June 24, 2012, 06:57 PM   #2347
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The Body count could go from two LEOs to a bunch of innocent citizens.
There have already been reports of Fast & Furious guns being tied to crimes in Arizona. They didn't just get loose in Mexico, and it's going to be years before we find out where they all ended up.

Quote:
The drug cartels can get all the full auto weapons they want
While it's much easier to pilfer them than it is here, it's not as if they're floating around on every streetcorner. They'll take what they can get.

I will remind everyone yet again that this thread is limited to discussion of Fast & Furious. General critiques of the administration are not acceptable, and pure politics falls outside the forum rules.
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Old June 24, 2012, 07:30 PM   #2348
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IIRC, ops analogous to F+F were also run in TX and FL, to get weapons across the border and supposedly to Honduras. An op has been discussed here out of Indiana that was feeding weapons to gangs to the north...IL. It is hardly surprising that some weapons would end up in NYC. Consider the goal, which is outrageous violence and a crisis to be resolved by a crackdown by Obama and cadre.

One of Eric Holder's first burps as AG was to discuss how he wanted to pass a new AWB. This predates the "90% of cartel guns are US" meme by half a year, I think.

As to whether the cartels are interested in semi-auto AR's and AK's or prefer "the real thing", the facts are that known prohibited persons were allowed by ATF to buy firearms as straw buyers (felony, for the approver and the buyer). Such firearms were handed off to others or directly transported across a national border (more felonies) with the conscious inaction of the authorities who could have and by law should have interdicted such transfers (more felonies).

Holder aided and abetted multiple felonies by people under his supervision, even if he didn't actually sanction the conduct, and Obama, by assertion of EP, now is attempting to bury this. Given the interactions that probably occurred between ATF, DOJ and agencies such as DEA, FBI and Dept of State to keep the op going, it is reasonably probable that Janet Napolitano and Hillary Clinton have a role, at best (for them) of tacit approval.

Obama's assertion of EP is to protect Holder, but not because they are buddies. Obama clearly will throw anyone he can afford to under a bus if he thinks it is the solution to a problem that person presents for him.

However, even Obama can't toss Holder, Napolitano, Clinton, the UN Small Arms Treaty, heads of FBI, DEA, NSC...the list goes on...under the bus and tell people "they did it, not me". EP is not a good idea to bury multiple felonies by "a few rogue agents" running a "botched sting operation". For all his hubris and indolent incompetence, I don't think Obama would do that, nor would he do it to save Holder, his buddy. Oh, and I really doubt Kevin O'Reilly wanted his current assignment in Iraq. Him calling Hillary and begging to go...nah.

If you can figure out what something isn't, you are starting to figure out what it is. Sometimes that is where you have to start, what something is NOT.

I believe this is what Obama is hoping he can bury long enough, that he and a number of his direct reports have fingerprints all over F+F. His prints might be faint, but the mass of people involved would be damning past redemption. No sentient of any persuasion could really admit voting to reelect him.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; June 24, 2012 at 10:00 PM. Reason: Removed veiled profanity and broad politics
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:14 PM   #2349
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Re Harry Schell's post 2348, lengthy but well said sir, well said.
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Old June 24, 2012, 09:49 PM   #2350
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FoxNews reports that Rep. Issa is predicting a bipartisan vote in favor of contempt. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...der-this-week/. Reacting to criticism the Oversight Committee had lost sight of the aim of the investigation, the death of Border Agent Brian Terry, Issa responded:
Quote:
"We, in fact, are simply trying to get to the truth when we were told a lie," Issa said. "It's about the cover-up."

"Ultimately, Justice lied to the American people on February 4 (2011), and they didn't make it right for 10 months."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...#ixzz1yllVYxOT

Those of us who have been following this for a long time realize the focus has shifted but this is the first time I can remember Rep. Issa publicly acknowledging this.
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