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Old June 21, 2012, 12:29 AM   #2301
jimpeel
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Here is what he said in 2007 about executive privilege: VIDEO LINK

Quote:
CNN’S LARRY KING: “Do you favor executive privilege or should Karl Rove and others in that like position be forced to testify before the House or Senate?

OBAMA: “Well, you know, I think we'll -- we'll determine over the next several weeks how this administration responds to the very appropriate call by Patrick Leahy, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, to have these individuals come in and testify. You know, there's been a tendency on the part of this administration to -- to try to hide behind executive privilege every time there's something a little shaky that's taking place. And I think, you know, the administration would be best served by coming clean on this. There doesn't seem to be any national security issues involved with the U.S. attorney question. There doesn't seem to be any justification for not offering up some clear, plausible rationale for why these -- these U.S. attorneys were targeted when, by all assessments, they were doing an outstanding job. I think the American people deserve to know what was going on there.”
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Old June 21, 2012, 07:43 AM   #2302
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Apparently the big administration talking point for the media today is that Holder provided 7600 documents (out of 140,000 documents that DOJ claims to have reviewed) and has testified nine times.

Having listened to every one of those nine testimonies by AG Holder, it drives me crazy that a year later and after the ninth testimony, the Attorney General still cannot say who was responsible for the misleading letter to Congress and who in DOJ knew about Fast and Furious. It isn't like those are unfair questions; but I've yet to see anyone point out that the AG has testified 9 times without being able to answer basic questions about a massive scandal in his Department.
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Old June 21, 2012, 09:00 AM   #2303
mooney1el
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In 2009, President Obama and Attorney General Holder were apparently well aware of the various projects involving gun walking. Here is a link to a video showing DHS and DOJ officials indicating highest level involvement.

http://www.therightscoop.com/bombshe...lking-in-2009/
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Old June 21, 2012, 10:44 AM   #2304
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^ That's a great video.
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Old June 21, 2012, 11:22 AM   #2305
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Surprisingly, while denouncing the GOP - the NY Times seems to think there is no reason not to release what is asked for - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/op...san-fight.html - with some face saving negotiations. Both sides playing politics - what else is new.

It's always the coverup.
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Old June 21, 2012, 11:26 AM   #2306
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One member of Issa's committee is willing to investigate Gunwalker and Wide Receiver as well as F&F. See Anderson Cooper interview with US Rep. Gowdy:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/2...vilege-absurd/
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Old June 21, 2012, 03:36 PM   #2307
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Point of fact, GWB did not burn Valerie Plame. Colin Powell's exec, Richard Armitage did so, and told Colin. Colin later denied to Bush he knew anything about who "outed" Plame, covering for Armitage and aiding the hunt which could only score Scooter Libby on (very likely) a memory lapse.

Off point in this discussion, but facts are troublesome things...

Thanks for the clarification, Aquila, sorry for my confusion.
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Old June 21, 2012, 05:52 PM   #2308
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See Anderson Cooper 360 interview with congressman Gowdy:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/2...rd/?hpt=ac_bn5
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Old June 21, 2012, 06:26 PM   #2309
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Bartholomew Roberts closed with the following:


Having listened to every one of those nine testimonies by AG Holder, it drives me crazy that a year later and after the ninth testimony, the Attorney General still cannot say who was responsible for the misleading letter to Congress and who in DOJ knew about Fast and Furious. It isn't like those are unfair questions; but I've yet to see anyone point out that the AG has testified 9 times without being able to answer basic questions about a massive scandal in his Department.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems to me that there is a difference, a large difference between questions that Mr. Holder is able to answer, and questions that he is willing to answer. Of course, given that he likely expected the political cover he is getting from the president, who has invoked Executive Privilege goes a long way to explain his "reticence"
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Old June 21, 2012, 10:51 PM   #2310
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Quote:
Apparently the big administration talking point for the media today is that Holder provided 7600 documents (out of 140,000 documents that DOJ claims to have reviewed) and has testified nine times.
The number of documents and times testified is relevant how? What possible reason could he have for not giving them up in closed committee? NONE.
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Old June 22, 2012, 12:12 AM   #2311
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I'm still waiting for a congressperson -- ANY congressperson -- to tell Holder that he is the head of a department of the United States government which committed an act of war against a foreign sovereign state and ask him what he thinks of that and if he know the punishment for that crime.
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Old June 22, 2012, 04:44 AM   #2312
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
The number of documents and times testified is relevant how? What possible reason could he have for not giving them up in closed committee? NONE.
It isn't relevant in my mind. Not to mention that turning over documents that have been so redacted that entire pages are black is hardly cooperative. The Administration appears to be pushing the line that they have been super cooperative and thus this is all political. As evidence of this, they throw out these numbers without discussing the substance.
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Old June 22, 2012, 06:47 PM   #2313
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If they were worried about documents which could affect any internal investigations being conducted by the Inspector General, I'm guessing there is some method in the government, congress, committee's etc, to allow the committee members to see the documents without releasing them to the public. Also, Carney is out there saying that ALL the documents RELATING to the operation itself are in the 7600 released to the congressional oversight committee. But, BUT, the amount of redaction in some of those make them to be unreadable and of very little valuable information. Also, if those documents are all there is, why don't we know who came up with the program, who decided to go forward with the program, and who gave the orders to the BATFE agents to commence with the program? Those are the people who need to be held responsible. I think one of the key guys is over in Iraq until after the elections.
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:03 PM   #2314
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People are reading way to much into this. It was a bone headed operation by the ATF. It was started during 43s administration. Not the first time or the last time a federal le organization has done something bone headed. The current administration wants nothing to do with gun control they have much bigger fish to fry.
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:21 PM   #2315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_iowa
People are reading way to much into this. It was a bone headed operation by the ATF. It was started during 43s administration. Not the first time or the last time a federal le organization has done something bone headed.
It was started during the Bush administration? Please cite your basis for this statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_iowa
The current administration wants nothing to do with gun control they have much bigger fish to fry.
Again, cite your proof. Most of us are, I think, in agreement that THIS current administration wants very much to advance gun control. They just don't want to be seen doing it.
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:22 PM   #2316
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The Phoenix field division of the BATFE devised operation Fast and Furious. See the 3 May, 2012 memorandum Issa sent to his committee. See page 4. Underlining mine.

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7...ment-FINAL.pdf


Quote:
Fast and Furious Conceived
The ATF Phoenix Field Division began Operation Fast and Furious in the fall of 2009 after suspicious weapons purchases led agents to the discovery of an apparent Phoenix-based arms trafficking syndicate. Having been encouraged to devise grander strategies to stop the transfers of weapons to Mexican drug cartels, the Phoenix based agents devised a strategy that went beyond simple arrests or weapons confiscations. They would allow the U.S.-based associates of
a Mexican drug cartel to continue acquiring firearms uninterrupted. In doing so, they hoped the weapons, after they were recovered at crime scenes in Mexico, could be traced and linked to cartel operatives including possible high-level financiers, suppliers, and possibly even king-pins.

The operation sought to achieve its lofty goals by focusing on the ringleader of the weapons smuggling syndicate they had identified: Manuel Celis-Acosta. Celis-Acosta was using a thenunknown number of straw-purchasers, including Jamie Avila, to purchase weapons.

In January 2010, ATF partnered with the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona and applied to Justice Department headquarters in Washington for funding through the Department’s Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) program. As senior Justice Department officials in Washington felt the operation had great promise, it won approval and additional funding. Operation Fast and Furious was reorganized as a Strike Force including agents from ATF, FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), and the Immigration and
Customs Enforcement (ICE) component of the Department of Homeland Security. ATF Agent John Dodson, who would later help blow the whistle on what occurred, was among the agents transferred to Phoenix to help with the operation as a result of the designation.

The Strike Force designation also meant that the U.S. Attorney’s Office – rather than ATF – would run Fast and Furious. At the time, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona was led by Dennis Burke, a new political appointee who had previously served as Chief of Staff to then Arizona Governor and now Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano. Earlier in his career, Burke had worked with former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel on gun control legislation as a U.S. Senate staff member. The newly organized Strike Force, led by the U.S. Attorney’s office, gave Operation Fast and Furious a chance to utilize sophisticated law enforcement techniques such

Last edited by thallub; June 22, 2012 at 07:35 PM.
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:29 PM   #2317
Bartholomew Roberts
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Jason_iowa, Fast and Furious was started in 2009, during this Administration. You appear to be confusing it with Wide Receiver, which took place under the Bush Administration. The differences are that Wide Receiver attempted to track and surveil the weapons, coordinated with Mexican law enforcement, and was shut down when it lost around 250 of some 400 rifles. It was apparently such a disaster that the U. S. Attorney at the time declined to prosecute.

If you believe the testimony of Lanny Breuer, he and Jacob Weinstein flew out to Phoenix to warn the ATF against engaging in such tactics - yet right after that meeting, Fast and Furious began - except without tracking or coordination with Mexico. And then a year later we have Weinstein's handwritten notes indicating an awareness of walked guns and with the words "Fast and Furious" written on them. Yet according to Breuer, he had no idea these tactics were still being used - in fact it never even occurred to him to think that, even after news reports began. Apparently, he didn't notice it on the seven wiretap applications he signed which indicated gunwalking was taking place.

That tends to argue against just ATF boneheadedness - not to mention the sudden unavailability of Kevin O'Reilly, Patrick Cunningham taking the Fifth, Dennis Burke resigning, etc. I know this is a long thread; but there is plenty of evidence to challenge your assertion in it.
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:30 PM   #2318
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A couple of corrections in the above remarks by Jason.

Project Gunrunner was indeed started under the Bush administration. Operation Fast and Furious was started by the current administration. Operation Wide Receiver was a Bush admin program, but it was markedly different in several crucial ways.

Wide Receiver failed and was killed as soon as the PTB were notified that some 200 guns had "walked."

Fast & Furious was killed only after Agent Terry was murdered and the news became public. And that, after some 2000+ guns were deliberately "walked." Hardly the same.

ETA: Make that; Aguila Blanca, thallub and Bart posted as I edited and posted while also having a conversation with Krucam at MDShooters! Gotta quit trying to multitask - I only have 1 processor!!!
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:45 PM   #2319
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I think Jason is quoting Wikipedia or some other such source. Really he should check these things better.

Quote:
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) ran a series of "gunwalking" sting operations[2][3] between 2006[4] and 2011.[2][5] This was done under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner, a project intended to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico by interdicting straw purchasers and gun traffickers within the United States.[6] "Gunwalking" or "letting guns walk" was a tactic whereby the ATF knowingly allowed thousands of guns to be bought by suspected arms traffickers ("gunrunners") working through straw purchasers on behalf of Mexican drug cartels.[7]
Here they falsely connect the two operations without acknowledging the two year break or the failed first program.

Then they try to pin it all on Newell:

Quote:
The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]
There are a lot of other falsehoods and misinformation in the article.

Wikipedia: misinforming the masses since 2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
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Old June 22, 2012, 07:50 PM   #2320
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Quote:
The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]

There are a lot of other falsehoods and misinformation in the article.
Not so fast on that one. Read the Memo Issa sent to his committee on 3 May, 2012. Fast and Furious was the invention of the Phoenix office of the BATFE.
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Old June 22, 2012, 08:00 PM   #2321
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^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia

Jacob Weinstein and Lanny Breuer knew that Operation Wide Receiver was a failure.

So OK, lets say that the people who conceived Operation Wide Receiver were incompetent and stupid.

What does it say about BATFE and DOJ under the Obama administration that they took a tactic that was a proven failure and repeated it?

That's more than stupid, it inexplicable and reckless. They must have known that walking guns again wouldn't nab any cartel kingpins, their arms dealers or their mules. For building a case against the cartels - the operation was useless. But one thing a repeat of the operation could do is put a lot of guns into the hands of the cartels, guns that could be tracked back to U.S. gunshops. A repeat of Wide Receiver could be pivitol in swaying public opinion and be a lynchpin in the argument that America needed stricter gun laws.
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Old June 22, 2012, 08:29 PM   #2322
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Quote:
Case in point. Do you actually believe that field agents dreamed up "Fast and Furious" ... which involved SENDING guns to Mexico with no way to track them once they crossed the border ... as a response to criticism that they were allowing too many guns to cross into Mexico? Think about that one for a few minutes ...
Issa says so:

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...ment-FINAL.pdf

Last edited by thallub; June 23, 2012 at 06:06 AM.
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Old June 23, 2012, 04:42 PM   #2323
alan
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jimpeel wrote in post 2311:

I'm still waiting for a congressperson -- ANY congressperson -- to tell Holder that he is the head of a department of the United States government which committed an act of war against a foreign sovereign state and ask him what he thinks of that and if he know the punishment for that crime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you happen to look very good in blue, don't hold your breath waiting, and this observation, I submit, applies with equal force to congressmen/women from either side of the aisle.

Executive Privilege likely applies to the answer.
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Old June 23, 2012, 07:12 PM   #2324
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^ Feel free to correct the article in Wikipedia
You can't. At least not on certain topics considered political. A super editor goes back in and reinvents history. They have re-invented their own 1984 over there.
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Old June 23, 2012, 07:15 PM   #2325
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When General Motors was in financial trouble, President Obama effectively FIRED the CEO, Rick Waggoner saying that the buck stops at the top. Since the DOJ has been a consummate failure in the operation known as Fast and Furious, shouldn't the buck stop at the top?
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