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Old June 18, 2012, 11:20 PM   #2251
alan
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Re this entire rotten business, the following comes to mind.

1. Obama is full of it.
2. Ditto Holder.
3. Ditto the "ATF"
4. Ditto the "news media", with very few exceptions.
5. Lest I forget, Ditto the Democratic Republican leadership.

Have I overlooked any salient factors?
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Old June 19, 2012, 06:35 AM   #2252
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Quote:
Have I overlooked any salient factors?
Methinks you have it covered.
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Old June 19, 2012, 08:11 AM   #2253
hogdogs
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From #2239...

Quote:
And we should believe Agent Dobyns ... why?

Sacrificial lamb. Judas goat. The loyal underling falling on his sword to protect his superiors (who have probably promised to "take care" of him afterwards).

Unfortunately, I've been too close to too many Federal investigations to have any faith in what someone like Agent Dobyns says when the logic of the situation clearly indicates that his fairy tale makes no sense whatsoever.
Jay Dobyns is hardly an ATF "yes man" or "whippin' boy"... To be quite honest, I was SHOCKED to learn he was still an agent after the scathing remarks he made in regards to their handling of the end of their Hells Angels infiltration...

He is quick to come forward with opinion based in truth as far as I can see of him...

Brent
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Old June 19, 2012, 10:40 AM   #2254
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You can go back a year before this story broke and find instances where Holder, Panetta, Mexico's President and others were blaming the border state gun shops for providing a channel for cartels to get guns and ammo. This was clearly a setup to undermined the second amendment. If they had not done such a poor job we would be seeing these same gun store owners on trial right now.
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Old June 19, 2012, 10:42 AM   #2255
Bartholomew Roberts
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Interesting Development

Sipsey Street Irregulars is reporting that Agent Jaime Zapata (the ICE Agent murdered in Mexico) had filled out a Report of Investigation dated August 2010 in which he indicated he was investigating the smuggling of weapons from Phoenix, AZ and San Antonio, TX. He described 80 weapons seized in interdiction (50 of which belonged to Fast & Furious).

Source: http://www.examiner.com/article/blog...ast-and-furiou

On February 15, 2011, a few months after the Fast & Furious story broke and about a month after the first inquiry from Congress, Jaime Zapata was murdered at a fake roadblock ambush. At least one of the weapons recovered at the scene was traced to an El Paso firearms trafficking ring that ATF had been watching for at least six months prior to the shooting (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_1...in;contentBody)

However, one reason this is bigger news is that when Janet Napolitano was questioned by Congress about DHS's role in Fast and Furious and whether the Zapata murder was linked to this, she testified "“I have no information to that effect, no. I don’t know one way or the other."

If the Agent who had been murdered had filled out a Report of Investigation that dealt with 50 recovered Fast and Furious weapons, that would seem to be the type of link that Congress might expect to be informed of. Apparently this particular piece of paperwork came to Congress through whatever network of insiders is helping expose the higher ups in DOJ and DHS.
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Old June 19, 2012, 11:18 AM   #2256
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A second Fast and Furious gun was linked to the Jaime Zapata murder: Peddled by a second gun runner being watched by the BATFE. The family of Zapata was not informed that Manuel Barba was prosecuted.


http://scottystarnes.wordpress.com/2...rder-turns-up/

Quote:

Prosecutors recently sentenced a Texas man, Manuel Barba, for trafficking a weapon connected to the murder of Immigration and Customs (ICE) Agent Jaime Zapata. Nobody was more astonished to learn of the case than Zapata's parents, who didn't know that Barba had been arrested or linked to their son's murder.

...........................................................................................................


Documents indicate ATF opened its case against Barba, entitled "Baytown Crew," in June of 2010. During the investigation, court records state Barba recruited straw purchasers and "facilitated the purchase and exportation of at least 44 firearms" including assault rifles. On August 20, 2010 Barba took delivery of the WASR-10 semi-automatic rifle later used in Zapata's murder, obliterated its serial number, and sent it to Mexico with nine others just like it. Nearly two months later, on Oct. 8, 2010, ATF agents recorded a phone call in which Barba "spoke about the final disposition of ... firearms to Mexico and also about the obliterating of the serial numbers before they were trafficked." Barba told straw purchasers the guns were destined for the Zeta drug cartel.

A warrant wasn't issued for Barba's arrest until four months later; coincidentally, the day before a rifle he trafficked was used against Zapata.

Barba is now the second weapons trafficker who had been under ATF surveillance to be linked to Zapata's murder. As CBS News previously reported, ATF had also been watching suspect Otilio Osorio during the time he trafficked a different weapon used in Zapata's assault. Records show ATF watched on Nov. 9, 2010 as Osorio, his brother Ranferi and Kelvin Leon Morrison transferred a cache of illegal weapons to a confidential informant but failed to arrest the men at the time.

The government has kept a close hold on nearly all information surrounding Zapata's murder, denying the family's Freedom of Information requests on the basis of an ongoing investigation. The Zapata's attorney says they will keep pursuing the information by "whatever means necessary."

Last edited by thallub; June 19, 2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old June 19, 2012, 12:07 PM   #2257
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Janet Napolitano testimony before House Homeland Security commitee

http://www.c-span.org/Events/Secreta...10737428328-1/

At 39 minutes Michael McCaul brings up the Jaime Zapata murder.

Rep Patrick Meehan brings up F&F again at 1:14 and trys to get at the existence of reports.

Ed Hammel was the ICE agent assigned to F&F. There were some rumors, that Ed raised objections to gun walsking and he was replaced by Layne France.

I think there must be some records on Ed's work. He must have filed reports I would think. I find it hard to beleive that those reports never went to Janet Napolitano.

She did have the information. Napolitano's only defense would be the Holder defense "I didn't read the memo."

Last edited by Luger_carbine; June 19, 2012 at 12:42 PM.
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Old June 19, 2012, 01:56 PM   #2258
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Napolitano's only defense would be the Holder defense "I didn't read the memo."
Which in my non-legal mind points to a charge of criminal negligence at the very least.
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Old June 19, 2012, 04:27 PM   #2259
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NRA members may be an important factor in the contempt proceedings

http://video.foxnews.com/v/169690558...t-eric-holder/

William La Jeunesse mentions that the NRA wants the contempt vote to move forward and may factor it in the grades it assigns representatives.
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Old June 19, 2012, 04:44 PM   #2260
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My bet is (While the meeting is supposed to be underway) there will be few if any documents and the ones selected will not reveal anything we dont already know about... The good old washington two step, round and round we go...

Mr. Holder might as well plead the 5th due to his potential criminal conduct and take the contempt and move on.. I dont think Mr. Holder will fold, contempt or not, he seems to feel superior and its about ideals with him (IMHO) not laws and certainly not about the constitution..

And as a After meeting Edit - yes I was right he turned over absolutely nothing.... Dont know how this problem gets solved but obviously for this level of stonewalling something bad must be in the documents requested.. Might be anything from mild inappropriate conduct to who knows....
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Old June 19, 2012, 05:11 PM   #2261
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Fox News pundits have started calling him Eric Witholder.
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Old June 19, 2012, 10:40 PM   #2262
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Quote:
Prosecutors recently sentenced a Texas man, Manuel Barba, for trafficking a weapon connected to the murder of Immigration and Customs (ICE) Agent Jaime Zapata. Nobody was more astonished to learn of the case than Zapata's parents, who didn't know that Barba had been arrested or linked to their son's murder.
The U.S. Attorney's Office, and possibly the investigating agency, appear to be in violation of federal law requiring notification to victims of significant court proceedings and to be heard at sentencing. The USDOJ has a brochure about it here: https://www.notify.usdoj.gov/USAOVictimRights.pdf. Where the victim is deceased, the term "victim" includes a spouse, parent, or certain other persons set out in 42 U.S.C. 10607(e)(2) available at http://openjurist.org/title-42/us-co...ces-to-victims.
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Old June 20, 2012, 12:51 AM   #2263
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Very sad.
Although I'm curious as to how the prosecutors do sentencing...
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Old June 20, 2012, 12:59 AM   #2264
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The 17,000 member National Border Patrol Council is calling for Holder's resignation.

Good interview with George McCubbin III on Cam and Company.

VIDEO LINK
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Old June 20, 2012, 07:54 AM   #2265
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Quote:
Fox News pundits have started calling him Eric Witholder.
Well... kinda fits.
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Old June 20, 2012, 08:28 AM   #2266
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That is a good interview with George McCubbin III.

Does anyone know if they poll their membership or if the members vote on something like this, or is it just a decision that the National Border Patrol Council leadership makes?
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:11 AM   #2267
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Obama invokes executive privilege over DOJ documents

and

Obama Grants Holder Request for Executive Privilege on 'Fast and Furious' Documents

This should get VERY interesting.
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:16 AM   #2268
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Obama just gave Holder Executive Privilege on this...The Obama administration must really be dirty on this whole F&F thing, I would have guessed Obama throws Holder under the bus long ago but I guess the expanse of this whole F&F thing must be much deeper into his Administration than Holder.

I really hope that politicians in Washington have the fortitude to call Obama out on this, to demand answers in a case where Americans have died because of numerous government screw ups.

Last edited by Tom Servo; June 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Language
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:38 AM   #2269
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OK, how does the legal system get around this "Executive Privilege" issue?
Does a lawsuit get filed? Do we need to get Agent Terry's family to file a criminal complaint against A.G. Holder or even President Obama?
How do the people get justice here?
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Old June 20, 2012, 09:51 AM   #2270
Luger_carbine
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I am trying to make sense out of this decision.

Up till now there has not been enough concrete evidence to tie the president directly to F&F.

By exerting executive privledge, President Obama has tied himself directly to F&F.

It only makes sense if the documents contain evidence that is so damaging to Holder that it forces his ouster AND having his AG resign damages the president to the extent that it ruins his re-election chances

or

The documents contain evidence that tie the president directly to F&F and either are grounds for impeachment or are so damaging that it ruins his re-election chances.

Axelrod is supposedly one of the most politically astute advisors in the country. It leads me to believe that the documents are extremely damaging to this administration.

I think this also tips the scales in the contempt proceedings. People who wanted to negotiate and head off a confrontation have just had the rug yanked out from under them. The adminstration has basically slapped the House of Representatives in the face. President Obama has thrown down the gauntlet.

I also think it changes some attitudes in the GOP. I think they smell blood in the water now, just my opinion.
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:13 AM   #2271
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As far as asserting Executive Privilege, it basically just means that there will be one more legal layer to dig through before the conflict can be resolved.

For all practical purposes, it will not be possible to resolve this issue before the November elections unless the parties suddenly come to an agreement after having failed to do so (or really even attempt it) several previous times.

At this point, I almost think the Democrats welcome the contempt vote. They are going to play it as politically motivated (as evidenced by comments from Rep. Elijah Cummings, Sen. Pat Leahy, and now the President) and hope that it distracts people from some of the other issues where they are doing poorly in public opinion.

Based on past examples, they can easily delay this past the November elections, so if they were the only source of the documents, then it makes sense to sit on them. The wildcard is that there is clearly one or more people who are handing over sensitive documents to the Oversight Committee. If those people hand over something earth-shattering (or have already done so), then this strategy could blow up in the Administration's face very quickly.

Barring something like that, I would guess you'll see a Oversight Committee vote that falls on party lines. After that, they will attempt to negotiate/stall again and you'll see a floor vote in the House with a few Democratic crossovers. After that vote, the House will recommend it to DOJ for prosecution. DOJ will investigate as long as they can and then decline prosecution. The House will file a civil contempt motion and the whole thing will go to court, where it will easily drag out past November.
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Old June 20, 2012, 10:20 AM   #2272
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A couple of definitions:

Quote:
executive privilege n. a claim by the President or another high official of the executive branch that he/she need not answer a request (including a subpena issued by a court or Congress) for confidential government or personal communications, on the ground that such revelations would hamper effective governmental operations and decision-making. The rationale is that such a demand would violate the principle of separation of powers among the executive, legislative and judicial branches.

Copyright © 1981-2005 by Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill.



executive privilege
n.
The principle that members of the executive branch of government cannot legally be forced to disclose their confidential communications when such disclosure would adversely affect the operations or procedures of the executive branch.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Ordinarily I would say that while we cannot should not draw any conclusions about the documents or White House involvement in the scandal, the time to invoke such a privilege would have been at or near the start of this debacle.

Invoking the privilege at this late date does tend to link the White House to any supposed cover-up.
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Old June 20, 2012, 11:02 AM   #2273
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How can the White House assert executive privilege on items it has denied any knowledge of?
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Old June 20, 2012, 11:04 AM   #2274
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Quote:
it will not be possible to resolve this issue before the November elections
After which, it will be largely forgotten, which is no consolation to the victims and their families. That's the part that chaps me the most.

Quote:
By exerting executive privledge, President Obama has tied himself directly to F&F.
Not really, but it does seem to imply that the administration has something to lose by complying. At the very least, it comes across as cronyism.

Let's remember that the President was making denials about F&F in a Univision interview in February of 2011, while the Attorney General claimed not to have heard about it until April or so.

However, the documents being witheld involve internal discussions since then, and I wonder if the committe doesn't have enough evidence to go forward already.
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Old June 20, 2012, 11:41 AM   #2275
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Quote:
OK, how does the legal system get around this "Executive Privilege" issue?
Does a lawsuit get filed? Do we need to get Agent Terry's family to file a criminal complaint against A.G. Holder or even President Obama?
How do the people get justice here?
Obama now owns F&F. He has joined in the cover-up. The next step should be to impeach Holder and perhaps Napolitano and hope the trial in the Senate uncovers the dirt on Clinton and Obama, then impeach them in Round 2.

Practically, it mean Obama and Holder have won. Boehner will kill the whole investigation.

The alleged "rule of law" is now dead in this country because it officially does not apply to the rulers.
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