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Old June 16, 2012, 10:00 AM   #2226
alan
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thallub closes a post with the following:

Sadly, congress has no stomach for reining in the BATFE.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking at history, that certainly seems a reasonable conclusion, such conclusions leading to the following question.

How high will the bodies pile before congress pulls up it's socks, and does what it is paid to do, which is, among other things, exercise real oversight over government agencies?
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Old June 16, 2012, 02:36 PM   #2227
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Right now Holder has said he would cooperate..we know what his word is worth. Time to take legal action and hold him in Contempt if the GOP is serious.
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Old June 16, 2012, 08:12 PM   #2228
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Quote:
Time to take legal action and hold him in Contempt if the GOP is serious.
The thing is, the GOP isn't serious.

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Old June 16, 2012, 08:26 PM   #2229
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eghad
Right now Holder has said he would cooperate..we know what his word is worth. Time to take legal action and hold him in Contempt if the GOP is serious.
Actually, wasn't his offer to "cooperate" sort of along the lines of, "I'll agree to give you what you ask for if you agree to only ask me for what I want to give you"?

I believe I read that the committee was not impressed with his offer of "cooperation."
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Old June 17, 2012, 10:51 AM   #2230
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Update - I found the article. It was on CNN's web news.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/14/politi...html?hpt=ju_c2

Quote:
In response, a spokeswoman for Issa's committee, Becca Glover Watkins, said Holder's letter "only seems to indicate a willingness to offer a selective telling rather than full disclosure of key events that occurred after February 4, 2011.

"We expect the Justice Department to quickly provide necessary details about how it is prepared to alter its opposition to producing subpoenaed documents," the spokeswoman added, without addressing Holder's proposal for a face-to-face meeting with Issa.
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Old June 17, 2012, 04:36 PM   #2231
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This is no more than before. He can't disclose stuff implicating himself, Napolitano, FBI and Obama. They knew or had a role in the action. Holder isn't smart enough to pull it off solo or to keep his yap shut about it.

Or so I think.
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Old June 17, 2012, 04:40 PM   #2232
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Aguila Blanca closed a recent post with the following concerning a House of Representatives Committee, and how it might react to DOJ's and Holder's antics


I believe I read that the committee was not impressed with his offer of "cooperation."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------Were I a member of that committee, I wouldn't be "impressed" either.

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Old June 17, 2012, 06:42 PM   #2233
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A few posts above I believe it was suggested that "Fast and Furious" was a program dreamed up by the career BATFE gang in the Phoenix office. I don't buy into that theory. The BATFE appears to be an agency that acts arbitrarily and capriciously, making up rules and interpretations on the fly, but even I acknowledge that they are pretty much dedicated to controlling firearms (often too much dedicated thereto, but that's why I consider them to be fatally flawed.)

The point is, I seriously doubt that a group ("cabal") of career BATFE agents ever decided that running guns into Mexico, where the BATFE has no authority or jurisdiction, would be a good idea and then sold it to their superiors in Phoenix and Washington. Given the current administration's known anti-gun stance, its history of lying about anything and everything, and (perhaps most importantly) Obama's statement that the administration was working on something in the furtherance of gun control "under the radar," to me it seems fairly obvious that "Fast and Furious" was a conspiracy hatched in Washington and handed down the chain of command rather than the other way around. It seems fairly obvious (to me) that the entire point of the program was to get guns into Mexico, where they would be recovered at crime scenes and traced to the United States, thus bolstering the administration's (and Mexico's) bogus claims that most of the guns used by the cartels in Mexico are purchased illegally through gun shops in Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; June 18, 2012 at 12:01 AM. Reason: typo
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Old June 17, 2012, 07:28 PM   #2234
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I am also of the opinion that this was not cooked up from below and sent up the chain of command.. Most bureaucrats seem to have little innovation, much less imagination and usually they are against anything that might cause them to loose otherwise super secure jobs that its almost impossible to be removed from..

Half the time I go in a federal office it seems I am the interruption of much net surfing, paper reading and general conversation on anything but work. (The post office is a exception) In fact the last time I went to a federal office I almost swore I insulted someone by asking for help in a office devoid of customers... Heaven forbid a polite request for assistance.....

So the way I see this is (My opinion) Mr. Holder conceived of and pushed this agenda in an attempt to create a situation where US citizens were being killed with US guns in such a way the loss of life would be tracked but the gun shop owners would be sold out as providing the weapons and no one would ever admit it was a BATFE operation.. From my view it seems the BATFE went very far to ensure as few records were recorded on the actual operation as possible to create plausible deniability. In my opinion Mr. Holder is a ideological criminal, the end justifies the means.. the end being more anti-gun laws...
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Old June 17, 2012, 07:41 PM   #2235
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Just a guess... But I expect the "plan" was hatched in AZ with gallant intentions but DC chose to make the "plan" a way to increase gun control...

DC not caring it would make the AZ atf office look like bafoons or the agency in general look like a mafia gun dealer outfit... The hierarchy od DC expecting all of us to be too stupid to see the forest for the trees...


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Old June 17, 2012, 07:52 PM   #2236
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Quote:
The point is, I seriously doubt that a group ("cabal") of career BATFE agents ever decided that running guns into Mexico, where the BATFE has no authority or jurisdiction, would be a good idea and then sold it to their superiors in Phoenix and Washington.
Doubt whatever you want to doubt. Contrary to popular belief; all devious federal schemes do not originate in the white house. BATFE agent Dobyns was in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. He says F&F originated at the Phoenix office of the BATFE. The Justice Department spokesman at the 15 June, 2011 committee hearing on F&F said as much.

See page 166 of transcripts:

Quote:
Who at Justice authorized this program?
Mr. WEICH. As I have said, Mr. Chairman, the Office of the Inspector
General——
Chairman ISSA. Who at Justice—if you know, I ask you to answer,
who do you know was involved in the authorization of this,
today? Do you know?
Mr. WEICH. We——
Chairman ISSA. Do you know?

Mr. WEICH. Well, Mr. Chairman, if you will permit me to answer
the question. We sent a letter to Chairman Smith, who asked a
question like that. We pointed out that this operation, as with
other law enforcement operations, originated in the ATF’s Phoenix
office——
Chairman ISSA. That is not authorization. Who authorized it at
the highest level?

While we're on this stuff; the committe has heard some very damning testimony. Why do they not have the guts to insist that the BATFE be reined in? After all Issa's party did promise to rein in the the BATFE.

See page 38 of Committe Report dated 14 June, 2011.

Quote:
Page | 38
There were several instances. Whenever he would get a trace
report back . . . he was jovial, if not, not giddy, but just delighted
about that, hey, 20 of our guns were recovered with 350 pounds
of dope in Mexico last night. And it was exciting. To them it
proved the nexus to the drug cartels. It validated that . . . we were
really working the cartel case here.

Agent Alt described in great detail his disgust at the self-satisfaction of ATF leadership for sending guns into what they knew to be a war zone. He also expounded on his view that the Group Supervisor should have been more concerned with those deaths in Mexico rather than
with motivating his team. He testified:

Why then do we stand by and try to motivate agents to do
something more to stem the homicides . . . with no further mention
on the homicides and correlate that with the number of guns
recovered in Mexico in a given month, when we should be saying
how many of those guns left this state that we knew about in
relationship to our cases in conjunction with these murders? That
didn’t happen.

B. “You Need to Scramble Some Eggs”

According to the ATF agents, their supervisors in Phoenix were sometimes shockingly insensitive to the possibility the policy could lead to loss of life. Agent Dodson explained:

Q. [S]omebody in management . . . used the terminology “scramble
some eggs.”

A. Yes, sir.

Q. If you are going to make an omelette you have got to scramble
some eggs. Do you remember the context of that?

A. Yes, sir. It was – there was a prevailing attitude amongst the group
and outside of the group in the ATF chain of command, and that
was the attitude. . . . I had heard that . . . sentiment from Special
Agent [E] Special Agent [L], and Special Agent Voth. And the
time referenced in the interview was, I want to say, in May as the
GRIT team or gunrunner initiative team was coming out. I was
having a conversation with Special Agent [L] about the case in
which the conversation ended with me asking her are you prepared
to go to a border agent’s funeral over this or a Cochise County

43 Agent Dodson Transcript, at 117-118.
44 Agent Alt Transcript, at 174.

Page | 39
deputy’s over this, because that’s going to happen. And the
sentiment that was given back to me by both her, the group
supervisor, was that . . . if you are going to make an omelette, you
need to scramble some eggs.45
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Old June 17, 2012, 08:47 PM   #2237
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Like most large operations, it probably went like this.

Someone from higher up (how high up is a question) said:

" We need to prove that guns from the US are making their way into Mexico and used in crimes... MAKE IT HAPPEN!!! "

And then the plan was hatched to acheive the directive.

Where it was hatched is the small part of the problem. Who gave the directive is the larger part of the problem.
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Old June 17, 2012, 09:43 PM   #2238
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There are a lot of good people in the BATFE. i'm a long time EOD/UXO tech. i've dealt with the fine folks who are the E in BATFE. They do a fine job of enforcing federal laws on the permitting of users, accounting and storage of explosives.

The SACs of BATFE regional offices are little tin gods. Many years ago the SAC of a BATF regional office tried intimidate a US Army EOD M/Sgt. into lying to a federal judge. That M/Sgt. was me.

The DOJ IG criticized agents in the field for their failure to stop guns from going into Mexico. Fast and Furious was the response to that IG criticism. In the minds of senior agents in the Phoenix office; Operation Fast and Furious was a logical extension of Project Gunwalker.

There is one very sad aspect of this F&F debacle. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Mexicans have been killed by guns walked into Mexico during operation Fast and Furious. Reams have been written about the murder of one Border Partrol agent with an F&F gun. No one in congress or elswhere seems to care very much about the murders of those Mexicans.

Many of the posters here are current and retired agents of the BATFE:

http://cleanupatf.org/
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Old June 18, 2012, 12:06 AM   #2239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thallub
Doubt whatever you want to doubt. Contrary to popular belief; all devious federal schemes do not originate in the white house. BATFE agent Dobyns was in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. He says F&F originated at the Phoenix office of the BATFE. The Justice Department spokesman at the 15 June, 2011 committee hearing on F&F said as much.
And we should believe Agent Dobyns ... why?

Sacrificial lamb. Judas goat. The loyal underling falling on his sword to protect his superiors (who have probably promised to "take care" of him afterwards).

Unfortunately, I've been too close to too many Federal investigations to have any faith in what someone like Agent Dobyns says when the logic of the situation clearly indicates that his fairy tale makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thallub
The DOJ IG criticized agents in the field for their failure to stop guns from going into Mexico. Fast and Furious was the response to that IG criticism. In the minds of senior agents in the Phoenix office; Operation Fast and Furious was a logical extension of Project Gunwalker.
Case in point. Do you actually believe that field agents dreamed up "Fast and Furious" ... which involved SENDING guns to Mexico with no way to track them once they crossed the border ... as a response to criticism that they were allowing too many guns to cross into Mexico? Think about that one for a few minutes ...
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Old June 18, 2012, 12:51 AM   #2240
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It's possible, but not without approval from DOJ, DHS, and the State Department. (which implies that the Whitehouse was in the loop too since it crosses-over multiple cabinets.)
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Old June 18, 2012, 12:54 AM   #2241
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Haven't heard the possible CIA connection (the idea of arming the Sinoloas so they could fight the Zetas more effectively, indirectly assisting the Mexican government, was purportedly advocated by CIA reps back when this had all started) brought up in quite a while.

If there is any accuracy to that assertion, though, we now would have DOJ, CIA, and very likely State involved.

In which case, the ultimate target should not be Holder.
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Old June 18, 2012, 08:17 AM   #2242
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The actual operation fits the modus operandi of this administration from the start. Anything that could be done through regulation under a bureau or bureaus to fit the goals of the administration was done. The administration has been and was completely aware that further gun control laws at the federal level would face a lot of resistance without an outcry from the public to take action.

An similar example would be the regulations in the energy industry (newly employed by bureaus) that have cause segments of the coal industry to go under.. No new laws had to be created by the congress.

Although this operation was not specifically through regulation, it was the use of a bureau to achieve a goal.

I believe this operation was completely to create that outcry for action against guns. Nor do I believe for one moment that the administration was attempting to arm one cartel to fight another.. Cartels have plenty of guns and plenty of less risky way to get them than to enter the US with our multiple levels of law enforcement and surveillance.

I think these things are done to achieve an ideological ends witout a lot of thinking about the overall consequences as the ends justifies the means to this administration.. (IMHO)
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Old June 18, 2012, 08:49 AM   #2243
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in have no doubt Operation Fast and Furious was approved by Holder and Obama. BTW: Phoenix SAC Newell had a friend in the white house: NSC Director of North American Affairs Kevin O'Reilly. To my knowledge O'Reilly has never been questioned by Issa or Grassley.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:47 AM   #2244
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Talk about the facts of the case, please. Discussing political blather on the tube or radio is heading for a shut down and we don't want to do that.

I am deleting discussion of some of the blazing intellects of the media.
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Old June 18, 2012, 10:35 AM   #2245
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The following, which has now and then been mentioned by other posters is that under administrations both Democratic as well as Republican, with congresses including majorities both Democratic as well as Republican, none of the above mentioned have ever acted to really check the antics of the "ATF".
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Old June 18, 2012, 03:43 PM   #2246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thallub
To my knowledge O'Reilly has never been questioned by Issa or Grassley.
O"Reilly got a suprise "promotion" to being the man on the ground in Iraq for International Drug Control or some such thing (it is buried in the back pages of this thread somewhere) shortly before he was called to testify about his knowledge of Fast and Furious. After being subpoena'ed Congress was told he was in Iraq and unavailable. Congress attempted to take testimony over the phone and that was shut down as well. To the best of my knowledge, O'Reilly is among the subpoenaed witnesses who have still not testified.

According to this recent story (http://www.examiner.com/article/obam...st-and-furious) O'Reilly has remained "out of reach."
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Old June 18, 2012, 07:13 PM   #2247
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Quote:
O"Reilly got a suprise "promotion" to being the man on the ground in Iraq for International Drug Control or some such thing (it is buried in the back pages of this thread somewhere) shortly before he was called to testify about his knowledge of Fast and Furious. After being subpoena'ed Congress was told he was in Iraq and unavailable.
Got a good belly laugh out of that. Generals can brief the Pentagon every day and Diplomats can brief State by secure live video feed but somehow the congress can't get a witness.



Good to know that you can still get packed off to Iraq when you become a liability.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:46 PM   #2248
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Quote:
Good to know that you can still get packed off to Iraq when you become a liability.
Beats the alternative. Three rounds to the back of the head: "The most thorough case of suicide we've ever seen!"
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:53 PM   #2249
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Border Patrol group calls for Holder’s resignation

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-resignation/

Quote:
The National Border Patrol Council, which represents all 17,000 of the agency’s non-supervisory agents, called for the resignation Monday of Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. for his role in the botched “Fast and Furious” gunrunning operation that resulted in the death of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

“It is time for Attorney General Holder to show the least shred of responsibility and leadership and resign his post,” Mr. McCubbin said. “Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry deserves nothing less."

“Americans deserve an attorney general who will be honest with them,” he said.
I wonder why they don't mention Janet Napolitano at all.
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Old June 18, 2012, 09:56 PM   #2250
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Does anyone know who all has filed FOIA suits in relation to F&F?

Judicial Watch just did:

http://www.newsmax.com/US/judicial-w...6/18/id/442681

Gun Owners of America did.

I am wondering if any News Agencies have?
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