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Old June 7, 2012, 03:20 PM   #2176
HarrySchell
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Haven't found a cite for a summary but reading tweets it appears the hearing today was more of the same, with Holder in denial of everything, blaming Bush and still promoting stricter gun control measures to add to the ones ATF bypassed to walk the firearms over the border. With some of the other comments, such as how "NRA radicals" concocted the whole F+F scheme up,
Sheila Lee Jackson "briefing" Holder before his appearance...it sounds a little unhinged. Not a surprise, I guess.
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Old June 7, 2012, 03:46 PM   #2177
Bartholomew Roberts
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I can only imagine the informative usefulness of a briefing from Sheila Jackson-Lee on any subject...

I wasn't able to listen to the hearing either; but your summary seems correct with one important exception... Issa showed Holder that he had the sealed wiretap applications.

The Hill is reporting that a DOJ mole is handing Rep. Issa information on Fast & Furious, including the sealed wiretap applications, at great personal risk to himself (he can be prosecuted for leaking a sealed record). Issa hasn't revealed who the source is and says he will not do so; but it must be interesting over at DOJ right now.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/23...issa-whack-doj
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Old June 7, 2012, 04:02 PM   #2178
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Ideally there will be no mole and the DOJ will purge the ranks looking for one. This could create several leaks.
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Old June 7, 2012, 04:38 PM   #2179
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Cite, with video. Things got fairly nasty, with Democrats on the committee trying to save the irredeemable.

Bart, you are right. Holder knows now that Issa knows and has evidence Breuer was signing off, which means Holder incredibly incompetent by omission or comission, or he's a rank liar, probably both.

This is not deception for political gain, it's damage control of a "Reichstag Fire" op to justify laws to disarm citizens and turn back Heller, MacDonald, etc. It is only "botched" in that the perps got caught and the fingerprints of Holder and his cadre didn't get buried deep enough. The cynicism that figures spilled blood (even if a lot of them were thugs), serial felonies by those sworn to uphold said laws...I better stop. What is too dirty for these guys not to do?

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/0...-good-witness/
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Last edited by HarrySchell; June 7, 2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Old June 7, 2012, 05:38 PM   #2180
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Not a new thread, not actually a "reply", however for those with about 1 hour to spare, go to the JPFO website (jpfo.org).

Once there, download and listen to the intereview with Katie Pavlich, who has written a book about Obama's Operation Fast & Furious.

I just finished listening, and found the interview interesting, others might also.
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Old June 7, 2012, 07:17 PM   #2181
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So, the AG suddenly has "superior knowledge" when arguing with members of Congress, but very little knowledge to answer questions that make him and/or his department look criminal...interesting indeed.
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Old June 7, 2012, 08:42 PM   #2182
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Not to mention that this is what? The 7th time Holder has testified in front of Congress regarding Fast & Furious and he STILL can't answer the same questions they have been asking for a year? That is either stunning incompetence or deliberate obstruction.
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Old June 7, 2012, 09:19 PM   #2183
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Holder has proven himself to be nothing but a brazen liar. He was shown an e-mail that specifically referred to both Fast & Furious and Wide Receiver, and he had the chutzpah to say that the e-mail did not refer to Fast & Furious.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/hold...ation-fast-and
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Old June 7, 2012, 10:19 PM   #2184
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Re comment/questions posed in/by post numbers 2182 and 2183, looking at who it is that involved, and his past performances and statements, is anyone surprised?

Strikes me that the following question remains. What real action is to be expected from The Congress, which contains both Democrats and Republicans.
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Old June 8, 2012, 10:26 AM   #2185
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Seriously this is a department in need of deep investigation. The reluctance on both sides of the aisle to break the stalemate on this screams that there is so much dirt that no one wants to open this can of worms all the way up. I think there can be no other reason for this to still be in a stalemate... how can any office not provide the documents required by lawmakers? And how can lawmakers refuse to force the situation to be resolved?

Its simple the powers that be on both sides have too much to loose.. Ignoring the right thing as a matter of sheer politics.
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Old June 8, 2012, 10:57 PM   #2186
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BGutzman essentially says that the leadership of both the Democratic and the Republican parties are conspiring to cover up the manifold failings of the Obama DOJ, playing an old game that is known as CYA.

Strikes me that he is all to correct in his description of things, the way they are. Of course, his analysis leaves open one particular question, that being WHY, as in WHY does the leadership of two contesting parties seem to have combined to cover up the antics of an all to corrupt executive agency, the DOJ, as it exists.

Does CYA answer such questions, I don't know, but there does appear to be a large worm in the apple. Actually, the problem appears to be a whole lot larger than a simple case of a worm in the apple, even a large worm.
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Old June 9, 2012, 02:18 AM   #2187
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I'm sure these investigators won't be checking for F&F whistleblowers while they are at it...

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/06/08...osecutors.html
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Old June 9, 2012, 04:55 AM   #2188
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As I've said before... Holder missed the boat on this whole issue. when first questioned he should have just said that yes we were smuggling guns into Mexico... and the reason is obvious... to restore the rights of the mexican people who are denied the right to keep and bear arms... it is unfortunate that some criminals got procession of some of these guns but that is the price of trying to do the right thing and set the mexican people free.
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Old June 9, 2012, 05:50 AM   #2189
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Quote:
Obama said his administration has "zero tolerance" for such leaks and that there would be an internal administration probe.

"We have mechanisms in place where if we can root out folks who have leaked, they will suffer consequences," the president said. "In some cases, it's criminal. These are criminal acts when they release information like this. And we will conduct thorough investigations, as we have in the past."
Wait -- Isn't conspiring to smuggle firearms across an international border a criminal act? Where's the administration's "thorough investigation" on that? They know who did it -- where are the "consequences"?

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; June 10, 2012 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Punctuation
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Old June 10, 2012, 07:48 AM   #2190
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Quote:
I don't like Boehner and Cantor's reticence.
i don't like it either but its understandable. The committee votes are probably not there: They may never be there. There are 23 Republicans and 17 Democrats on Issa's committee. None of the Democrats on the committee will vote to bring contempt charges against Holder.

http://oversight.house.gov/committee-members/

Issa needs 21 votes to recommend contempt charges against Holder. At present Issa has 16 votes. Two Republicans are seriously waffling and five others have not committed. If the committee vote should fail theres no indictment of Holder for contempt. Big political issue for the Democrats.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/22...ntempt-charge-

Quote:
When compared with the 16 Republicans on the committee who have actively been speaking in favor of the measure, the silence, lack of outspoken support and desire by these eight GOP caucus members to avoid the issue could be a problem for Issa.

Republican leadership has been hesitant and reluctant to voice its support for Issa’s move, possibly owing to the chairman’s inability to guarantee the measure’s passage in his own committee.

.................................................. .................................................. ......


With only 16 committee Republicans publicly supporting the resolution — and no Democrats — Issa falls short of the 21 votes he needs to pass it out of the 40-member panel to the House floor.

Rep. Justin Amash (R-Mich.) plans to hold off making a decision on whether he will support the measure until Issa puts forward a final version of the resolution and formally introduces it, his office told The Hill. Rep. Frank Guinta’s (R-N.H.) office said the lawmaker declined to comment on whether he supports Issa’s measure.

Reps. Todd Platts (R-Pa.), Mike Turner (R-Ohio), Connie Mack (R-Fla.), Tim Walberg (R-Mich.) and Patrick Meehan (R-Pa.) have not responded to repeated requests for comment over the past two weeks.

Last edited by thallub; June 10, 2012 at 08:15 AM.
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Old June 10, 2012, 08:32 AM   #2191
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And to fail to get the indictment through would be real bad looking for the repubs... They would like they went after the bad guys with baseless claims and for nefarious political reasons... After all, if their were grounds for such indictment, the dems would obviously thrown party affiliation aside to go after these folks....

Brent

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Old June 10, 2012, 09:59 PM   #2192
alan
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Re AguaBlanca in 2189, yes, I would think that running guns across an international border would be a criminal act, but then when the gun running is done by Obama et al, or Gun Control flacks, pretty much the same thing, definitions change, and what would be "criminal acts" if done by you or I become something else when done by "government", or government actors, funny isn't it.

In any event constitute, it stikes me that the Republican "fence sitters" constitute one of the lower forms of animal life, this being a purely subjective judgement by me, what the hell do I know? Democdratws on the comittee, who seem to support most anything done by a fellow Democrat look pretty poor too, but that is perhaps another matter.
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Old June 11, 2012, 08:37 AM   #2193
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After AG Holder's testimony this past Thursday, CBS News is reporting that the House Oversight Committee will hold a vote on the citing Eric Holder for contempt next week. Additional Fast & Furious hearings will be held June 12th.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...der/?tag=stack

Apparently, Holder showing up for the 7th time and still not being able/refusing to answer basic questions about who is responsible for Fast & Furious pushed some of the on the fence Representatives over the edge. CleanupATF.org also seems to think that Holder finally stepped in it and perjured himself in a way that can be proven. Guess we will see...
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Old June 11, 2012, 08:51 AM   #2194
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Unfortunately, there will probably be some sort of political solution that slows down the process so as not to cause blow-back for November elections and by that time Holder willl probably go one way or another and we will never have "justice" -
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Old June 11, 2012, 09:08 AM   #2195
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One thing bothers me about this "investigation" into Operation Fast and Furious. Issa and the Republicans have made it a referendum on Holder for political gain. They never speak of reining in the out of control BATFE. This operation was hatched by the professional bureaucrats in the Phoenix office of the BATFE who sold it up the food chain of the Justice Dep't and to the political appointees at the BATFE.

Those professional bureaucrats of the BATFE give the organization its continuity and its deserved reputation as a bunch of jackbooted thugs. Until they are reined in this kind of horror story will continue to happen. The Republicans in congress lack the intestinal fortitude to reform the BATFE.
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Old June 11, 2012, 09:40 AM   #2196
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I don't think this ^ is the real problem in this situation. Not a "Republican" problem. It is a DOJ cover-up.
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Old June 11, 2012, 10:24 AM   #2197
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Quote:
don't think this ^ is the real problem in this situation. Not a "Republican" problem. It is a DOJ cover-up.
DOJ cover up or not, the plan to let guns walk across the Mexican border was hatched by the career employees in the Phoenix office of the BATFE. The F part of the BATFE is instutionally corrupt and congress does not have the guts to fix it.
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Old June 11, 2012, 01:08 PM   #2198
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You have to have three things work in concert to "fix" the problem. House, Senate, and POTUS. Problem you describe will not be "fixed." Yes, more heads should roll, but right now the cover-up is the issue.
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Old June 11, 2012, 01:10 PM   #2199
Bartholomew Roberts
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This link reports that Issa has said 31 House Democrats will vote to cite Holder for contempt. From that link, I am taking it that Issa feels confident on how next week's Committee vote on the contempt citation is going to go:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/...with-us-on-hol

Here is a link to a 2007 Report from the Congressional Research Service on the history and legality of Contempt of Congress citations: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34097.pdf

Apparently, the House has the power to send the House Sergeant-at-Arms to arrest Holder and imprison him in the Capitol jail for the remainder of that session if they choose to invoke it.

It appears the Committee vote for contempt will take place this Wednesday, June 13 June 20th. However, the Committee can vote and then choose not to send it to the floor, so no idea when the full vote on contempt will occur. I do know that Eric Cantor has sent a letter to the Department of Justice giving them a June 20th deadline to comply, so I would guess that is when the House will vote on it should DOJ not comply.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; June 12, 2012 at 10:07 AM.
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Old June 11, 2012, 05:59 PM   #2200
alan
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Post 2193 makes mention of to me, a new group, CleanupATF.org, which supposedly claims that "Holder has stepped in it" having actually perjured himself in recent congressional testimony. Personally speaking, I suspect he perjured himself a long time ago when he took the oath of office, that included something about "supporting, upholding, and defending the constitution". One would be hard put to see where or how the guy has so acted.

That being said, some posters have recently called attention to the fact that there appears little attention being paid to the fact of problems in and with the BATFE itself, where the "professional bureaucrats" dreamed up and sold Operation Fast & Furious to the political appointees. Also mentioned is the fact that The Congress obviously lacks the guts, I would add that it lacks the honesty to rein in this run-away mob, the BAFTE, as it is currently named.

In conclusion, and sadly, I lean toward the following conclusion. Holder will not likely be cited for contempt of congress nor will he face any serious charges. The entire cdriminaT fiasco, that being Operation f & F, the role played by Obama's AG, Mr. Holder and the rold played by
The Whitehouse, including the president himself will be WHITEWASHED, that is covered up. Should Obama be re-elected, gun rights among other things will likely be in serious trouble. By the way, respecting Mr. Romney and gun rights, I would not trust the gentleman beyond the distance I could throw him. I hope that my view of things turns out to be overly dark, but that's the way I see the thing.

Last edited by alan; June 11, 2012 at 06:13 PM.
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