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Old April 26, 2012, 08:57 AM   #2126
Bartholomew Roberts
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According to the Daily CallerU. S. Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich (of "ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico" fame) has resigned from his position with DOJ - making him the first D.C. DOJ employee (but not the last) to fall on his sword.
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Old April 26, 2012, 10:45 AM   #2127
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This is kind of strange because it doesn't seem to me that F&F is recieving that much attention. I know that can be a function of the media, but it's almost as if the F&F investigation is in hiatus.

Weich, Holder or the administration must see something coming down the pike for this to happen.
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Old April 26, 2012, 01:56 PM   #2128
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Weich, Holder or the administration must see something coming down the pike for this to happen.
Of course they do. What's coming down the pike is the 2012 elections. No one with any political connection to the current administration is going to push anything that might potentially embarass them.

After the elections, it will either be a case of the re-elected administration throwing a few sacrifical lambs to us, and burying the issue completely, or a new administration trying to see those responsible actually face justice. And, in the case of a new administration, there will be a strong push to just let it go, as they have more important, more pressing, more current things to do, and fix.

Myself, I think this is something that should be brought up (and forcefully) everytime any politicain mentions anything about our borders. With the election looming, this is the worst time to let them hide it under the rug.

Of course, that's just me....
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Old April 26, 2012, 03:30 PM   #2129
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Another option that Ronald Weich is running out of cannon fodder (not so USAG Holder though). There are only so many people between him and Phoenix that he can throw under the bus and most of them are gone now.

Add to that he is a political appointee and will lose his job with little warning should President Obama not be re-elected in November. If he stays, he faces several opportunities to perjure himself before Congress, only this time there will be fewer people he can blame for these unfortunate misunderstandings, since most of those people have already been blamed for the previous "miscommunications."

I could see where a nice, cushy job as dean of a law school would seem attractive to him given the potential future scenarios of keeping his current job.

On the other hand, Lanny Breuer is obviously either a liar or so grossly incompetent in judgment he couldn't get work as a line cook in McDonald's; but AG Holder doesn't seem to be interested in seeing him go just yet. I guess Holder is worried about his own line of cannon fodder getting thinned out too soon.
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Old April 26, 2012, 07:28 PM   #2130
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re 44amp in post 2128, that's likely how the thing will go, which strikes me as all wrong.

Of course, nobody in power asked my opinion, and besides, given that I still believe 2+2=4, what do I know? Oh by the way, I don't even come close to getting a meaningful response from any of my "elected things", canned emails and boiler plate "letters" not being meaningful responses.

Just like the financial aspects of The Great Recession, none of those truly responsible will ever be inconvenienced, let along punished for manifold wrongdoings.

Last edited by Tom Servo; April 26, 2012 at 09:26 PM. Reason: Removed electoral politics
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Old April 26, 2012, 07:42 PM   #2131
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Quote:
Myself, I think this is something that should be brought up (and forcefully) everytime any politicain mentions anything about our borders.
Politicians aren't talking about our borders much these days, so I don't really see that happening.
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Old April 26, 2012, 09:27 PM   #2132
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AG Holder doesn't seem to be interested in seeing him go just yet. I guess Holder is worried about his own line of cannon fodder getting thinned out too soon.
That, or he's worried that one of them will start singing.

I've got a sneaky suspicion that this matter will be politicized during the months leading up to November.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:04 AM   #2133
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That, or he's worried that one of them will start singing.
Yup, I imagine even Eric can only line up so many law school dean and big law partner slots in this environment.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:33 AM   #2134
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Holders not worried because he is aware the likelihood of something sticking to him is very remote. Holder is not concerned that a few congressman are making an on again, off again, half hearted attempt at getting to the bottom of F&F.

The professional bureaucrats in the BATFE guide the organization and give it direction. It is significant that Operation F&F originated with the professional bureaucrats in the BATFE, not the political appointees. The concept of F&F was sold up the food chain by those same professional bureaucrats.

Despite bombastic sporadic rhetoric to the contrary, the US congress is not interested in reining in the BATFE.

Last edited by thallub; April 27, 2012 at 08:40 AM.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:30 AM   #2135
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Was Bill Newell a political appointee?


The idea could have been hatched by anybody, but I believe the first we see of it is in documents originated from Burke... I could be wrong. I thought it might have between Dennis Burke and Bill Newell. Although we really don't know right?

Dennis Burke was (is) so rabidly anti-gun I wouldn't doubt he was the mastermind.

I think at the very least though there were a lot of people in the BATFE who were willing to pimp ATF out to the administration to score political points.
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Old April 27, 2012, 12:03 PM   #2136
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Was Bill Newell a political appointee?
No, he was the SAC of the Phoenix field office and a career agent. Dennis Burke was the federal prosecutor for AZ. He blessed F&F.

Quote:
I think at the very least though there were a lot of people in the BATFE who were willing to pimp ATF out to the administration to score political points.
Bingo!!! Its always that way.

In the late 1970s i was a M/Sgt. in US Army EOD. Had a lot of professional dealings with the BATF. Been reluctant to tell this story to anyone for 33 years.
The SAC of a BATF regional office tried to coerce me into lying to a federal judge.

Acting on information provided by a snitch felon, the BATF raided the home of an outstanding citizen and took his gun collection of over 200 pieces. They also confiscated hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition.

This is where i came in. To shorten the story, the BATFE claimed they turned all that ammo over to my EOD unit for destruction. That was a lie. After i refused to write a statement saying we had destroyed that ammo, the SAC showed up at my office with a CID officer i had known for many years. The SAC asked the CID officer to read me my rights. The CID man retorted: "You sob if you want the M/Sgt. informed of his rights, you do it".

There was an internal BATF investigation; i was questioned by the BATF investigator. He readily admitted that a federal judge had ordered the BATF to return the guns and ammo to their owner. Some of the guns and all of the ammo was missing. i retired from the Army shortly after, moved out of the state and don't know what happened after that.

if i'm on this site complaining about my instant check going tilt you will know why.

Last edited by thallub; April 27, 2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:48 PM   #2137
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Sharyl Attkisson, at CBS, reports that:"Republicans prepare contempt citation against Eric Holder over Fast and Furious". Lets hope it succeeds!

Link to CBS article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...t-and-furious/
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Old April 28, 2012, 07:25 AM   #2138
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Based on the article I read, in this instance "prepare" means something like "We're getting ready to start getting ready to get ready to start thinking about whether or not we should start thinking about maybe doing something."

In other words ... don't expect to read tomorrow's headlines and see that Holder has been served.
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Old April 28, 2012, 07:44 AM   #2139
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I understand from the article though the political risks involved in leveling a contempt charge.

It's almost as if the case for the contempt charge has to be tried in the court of public opinion and the accusers must prevail or face political backlash.

It takes time to build support for something like that, to plan, to organize, to coordinate.

From the article, it sounds like the next step after the contempt charge would be getting a federal judge to order DOJ to turn over all remaining requested documents.

Could a judge also order them to turn over unredacted documents?
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Old April 29, 2012, 09:44 AM   #2140
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Jimmy Kimmell managed to work in a Fast and Furious reference at the White House correspondents' dinner by telling the President to "Stick by his guns... and if you don't have any, ask Eric Holder."

http://twitchy.com/2012/04/29/jimmy-...scratch-heads/
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Old May 3, 2012, 11:30 AM   #2141
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Based on the article I read, in this instance "prepare" means something like "We're getting ready to start getting ready to get ready to start thinking about whether or not we should start thinking about maybe doing something."
It looks like the first draft of a contempt citation will be making the rounds in the House Oversight Committee today. We should see how well it goes over by tomorrow.

Actual text is here [pdf].

Quote:
Resolved, That Eric H. Holder, Jr., Attorney General of the United States, shall be found to be in contempt of Congress for failure to comply with a congressional subpoena.

Resolved, That pursuant to 2 U.S.C. §§ 192 and 194, the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall certify the report of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, detailing the refusal of Eric H. Holder, Jr., Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice, to produce documents to the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform as directed by subpoena, to the United States Attorney for the District of
Columbia, to the end that Mr. Holder be proceeded against in the manner and form provided by law.

Resolved, That the Speaker of the House shall otherwise take all appropriate action to enforce the subpoena.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; May 3, 2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old May 3, 2012, 01:10 PM   #2142
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It looks like they are gathering the votes and support needed to go ahead with the contempt citation. Considering that DOJ has still not provided ANY documents in 12 out of the 22 categories listed in the memo, I'd be surprised if DOJ starts cooperating now.

It looks to me like they are going to claim they have cooperated enough and decline to turn over any further documents and then claim the whole thing is political.
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Old May 3, 2012, 01:56 PM   #2143
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Certainly the DOJ is not superior to the House or the Senate as a institution.. The lack of subordination to the will of the people as expressed in the institution of the House and Senate is a stunning statement of how much power the DOJ feels it has.
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Old May 3, 2012, 02:07 PM   #2144
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It's not so much a sense of power; they think Holder is untouchable.
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Old May 3, 2012, 02:31 PM   #2145
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So who would prosecute/support the contempt citation? I thought it was DOJ that performed this function. Would any of you expect the head of DOJ to enforce a citation against the head of the DOJ?

Where am I going wrong here?
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Old May 3, 2012, 02:57 PM   #2146
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According to what I think I just read, the Speaker would appoint a U.S. Attorney to handle it.
Perhaps this link will help:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/7/8/1731/15806 (talkleft.com)
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Old May 3, 2012, 03:54 PM   #2147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimPage
So who would prosecute/support the contempt citation? I thought it was DOJ that performed this function. Would any of you expect the head of DOJ to enforce a citation against the head of the DOJ?
There is a statutory 'duty' for the US Attorney receiving a Contempt of Congress citation to present the matter to a grand jury.

2 USC § 194 - Certification of failure to testify or produce; grand jury action
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Old May 3, 2012, 04:26 PM   #2148
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Only problem being that the U.S. Attorneys work for the DOJ and, at the very least, present the appearance of a conflict of interest.
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Old May 3, 2012, 10:46 PM   #2149
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Great article.

Historically, the executive branch hasn't won these confrontations straight-out.

IMO, because a man was killed as a result of Fast & Furious, I believe the key witnesses will testify and the unredacted documents will be shown eventually to the subcommittee.
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:35 AM   #2150
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Re the possibility olf a contempt citation being brought against AG Holder, this arising out of DOJ stonewalling regarding Operation Fast & Furious, same would be nice to see but realistically I won't hold my breath waiting .to see said citation enacted and papers served on Holder.

I could well be wrong, but I expect that the thing will turn out more or less as follows. All this talk of the AG being cited for contempt, there were a couple of mentions of same heard on newscasts yesterday, I think that the whold miserable business will be swept under the carpet, given that The Congress lacks the guts to address this fiasco, as it should be addressed.

In conclusion, I hope I,m wrong, but we shall have to await such endings as are obtained.
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