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Old March 6, 2012, 12:42 PM   #2076
C0untZer0
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This is from ICE's website, I can't tell if any of these cases have to do F&F or associated BATFE gun running operations, but some of these sentences are 10 years and 14 years (total) maybe Davis got some RICO charges or something.

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/120...sanantonio.htm

But one of the sentences - for Kieth Edwards is for 87 months - that's 7 years right - even using new math?

My point is this - I think Lanny Bruer or maybe even Eric Holder has said that the current laws constitute a slap on the wrist, and then I believe they or their allies cite actuall sentences of people convicted.

If I were to guess, I'd say the light sentencing of some of the people is due to problems with the cases, but anyway - it's not a problem with the law, and if it were, why not try to change it instead of using that as an excuse to run guns into Mexico?

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Old March 12, 2012, 01:00 PM   #2077
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Some here have likely already seen the latest JPFO Alert, this dated 9 March, containing among other things commentary by Gary Bracken on the differences in media coverage between that "third rate burglary" otherwise known as Watergate, and media coverage, or in his view, the lack thereof, respecting the foibles of the Obama DOJ and "ATF" concerning Operation Fast & Furious, and the "gun walking" that was seemingly an integral part thereof.

It might be that the Bracken piece is to "political" to be here included here, I imagine that some will so think. Being that as it might, the thoughts/comments expressed by Mr. Bracken strike me as worthy of attention, and for whatever it might be worth, I recommend that people here take a few minutes to read through them. There is a direct link included in the 9 March JPFO alert.
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Old March 19, 2012, 01:14 AM   #2078
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If there is any doubt in anyone's mind that Holder was intentionally trying to make firearms look bad through F&F, watch him in his own words and his own voice.

This is a video of him speaking about firearms and changing the attitudes of people about firearms. He wanted a campaign, similar to the campaigns against cigarettes, which would seek to show that firearms are not "hip" or "cool".

Flashback to January 1995:

VIDEO LINK

Quote:
... in the way in which we've changed our attitudes about cigarettes ... but over time we changed the way in which people thought about smoking, and so now we have people who cower outside of buildings and kind of smoke in private and don't want to admit it; and that's what I think we need to do with guns, really change the way in which people think about guns.

...

... and so what I've asked is that the creative community in Washington -- those ad agencies that create these snappy ads that make me buy things that I don't really need -- devote that talent in a more constructive way so we can get at the minds of these young people this informational campaign. I've also called on the newspapers, and the television stations, to devote to us a time and space so that we can get these ads, so we can use these spots, and not to give us one, two o'clock in the morning ads when nobody's watching, but at the time when people, particularly young people, are watching television so that when they're watching, you know, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, or Martin, or whatever else they watch -- and, yeah, I watch those things once in a while -- um, so that they'll see these ads and they'll be grabbed by these ads. I've also asked people who have influence over youngsters, entertainers, athletes, to be involved in this program as well; but not only them, community leaders, Jesse Jackson, Mayor Barry people who have credibility with young people should be on the television, on the radio, as much as we possibly can; and telling these youngsters that it's wrong to carry a gun and that, if you have information about people who are carrying guns, you've got to share that with Chief Thomas and with his people as well.

I've also asked the school board to make a part of every day some kind of anti-violence, anti-gun message. Every day, every school, at every level.

One thing that I think is clear with young people, and with adults as well, is that we just have to be repetitive about this. It's not enough to simply have a catchy ad on a Monday and then only do it every Monday. We need to do this every day of the week and just really brainwash people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way.


(Emphasis mine)
I really feel, in my heart of hearts, that Holder was not only knowledgeable of F&F but was a co-author of the program on orders from his boss. The goal? The demonization of firearms that were killing innocent Mexicans, provided to the cartels by evil Americans, which would create an outcry for more firearms laws and regulations.
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Old March 19, 2012, 08:05 AM   #2079
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Quote:
I really feel, in my heart of hearts, that Holder was not only knowledgeable of F&F but was a co-author of the program on orders from his boss. The goal? The demonization of firearms that were killing innocent Mexicans, provided to the cartels by evil Americans, which would create an outcry for more firearms laws and regulations.
99.9% of people here probably feel the same.
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Old March 19, 2012, 09:53 AM   #2080
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Fox News just aired the section of that 1995 video about the brainwashing part!!!

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Old March 19, 2012, 10:42 AM   #2081
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Los Angeles Times print edition of today

Can't seem to find the story on the website, but Los Angeles Times print edition of today is reporting that one the main targets in F+F was detained by ATF at the border with 74 rounds and 9 cellphone concealed in his car. Hope McAlister is alleged to have put her phone number on a $10 bill so he could collaborate with ATF in the scheme, and they let him go. He diappoeared into Mexico. He didn't call or write, but there is no mention if Hope's heart broke for his neglect (heh). This supposedly was about half way through the "program".
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Old March 19, 2012, 12:15 PM   #2082
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Well, Holder's plea to the ad industry is working. Back then I thought guns were for hunting and self-defense. Since then I've come to appreciate the real purpose of the 2A. Thanks to the likes of Holder, Clinton, Bush and Obama, my brain has been washed of that frivolous perspective. It seems to me a LTO more people are coming to this same awareness. It aint just duck hunting.

I hope that F+F starts getting some momentum as we head into the post-primary season. The current rate is plodding along with revelations here and there, but I don't a general awareness of just how anti-American this program was and that involving multiple agencies on a foreign country could only have originated from the WH itself.
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Old March 19, 2012, 06:03 PM   #2083
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The reprogramming worked on Holder...
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Old March 19, 2012, 06:05 PM   #2084
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Link, thanks to Dave Hardy...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3662110.story
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Old March 19, 2012, 08:03 PM   #2085
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So the secret to escaping from the clutches of the ATF when you are their #1 target is to say "Yes I will cooperate, why don't you give me your phone number (here just scribble it one this coke dusted dollar bill) and I'll call you. Promise. Really. I aint kidding."

Then you can roam about the country or tour Mexico unmolested.

On the other hand, if have no record and your name is Randy Weaver and you say "Take a hike ATF." they send a small army to stake out your house and shoot your dog, your son and then your wife.
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Old March 19, 2012, 08:43 PM   #2086
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Here is the CBS News link: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...ocuments-show/

Apparently, the main target of Fast & Furious, Manuel Acosta, was stopped by Border Patrol, who held him for ATF in May 2010, and the ATF, specifically Agent Hope McAllister, one of the major Fast & Furious players, let him go.

Not only this; but apparently the Department of Justice did not provide this information to the Oversight Committee, even though it is covered by previous subpoenas (shocking I know).
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Old March 19, 2012, 08:51 PM   #2087
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From the CBS article:

Quote:
Before releasing Acosta, MacAllister wrote her contact information on a $10 bill at Acosta's request, gave it to him, then warned him "not to participate in any illegal activity unless under her direction."
Why is this not surprising? ATF seemed to be directing quite a bit of illegal activity in F&F.
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Old March 20, 2012, 12:31 PM   #2088
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I think an argument can be made that this is further evidence that the operation was not concerned with arresting drug cartel members, and that the true objective was to pile up straw-purchase weapons at crime scenes.

The idea that they let Manuel Acosta go in an attempt to catch a bigger fish is absurd. He was listed as the primary target for the investigation !

It just highlights the disparity between the "official" objective of F&F and the actual one.

If there wasn't some other agenda at work - they would have brought the indictment right then and there.

What about policy and procedure? Since when does a lead case agent have the authority to completely change the entire nature and scope of an operation? They had their guy - the objective that was listed as the primary target, and they let him go. I say "they" because I doubt Hope MacAllister acted on her own.
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Old March 20, 2012, 02:39 PM   #2089
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It also seems that DOJ is making progress in determining which of the 80,000 documents requested have nothing to do with F&F.

They turned over a few hundred documents last week and initial examination of them indicate they contain no information on F&F.
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Old March 21, 2012, 10:57 AM   #2090
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There was an interesting point burried in the CBS Story. It concerned the reason for not prosecuting the grenade smuggling case. "It lacked Jury appeal".
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Old March 21, 2012, 11:12 PM   #2091
alan
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Re what appears to be the continuing "shucking and jiving" by Obama's DOJ over documents relevant to Operation Fast and Furious, the fact that neither Rep. Issa nor Senator Grassley have attempted to obtain contempt of congress citations against DOJ officials and or Holder himself, is certainly curious. Either of those gentlemen could so act, couldn't they?

They could also seek, and obtain subpenas, ordering the production of documents, couldn't they?
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Old March 22, 2012, 08:08 AM   #2092
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So in order to counter these brainwashing techniques, we must do everything we can to introduce new shooters to guns and reloading, and to take the time to explain to our children and their friends that you can not trust your Government, you can not trust any Law Enforcement. We are at war and they are not playing fair.

I used to be able to wrap my mind around that there is a man inside that uniform. A man with a family he's trying to feed and we should respect that man...That's crap though, if the man is willing to get up and put on the uniform of Oppression, well...he's flying his flag and has identified himself to be with the enemy. Our boys didn't go to germany and ask those nice men in the Nazi uniforms if they had kids at home and fish on Saturday...
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Old March 22, 2012, 08:34 AM   #2093
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We got to where we are because the average voter knows way more about sports than politics even though the politicians affect our daily lives and sports for the most part dont.

Its easy to point at this person and that person and say whatever but the truth is the blame belongs on "we the people" we have allowed much of the protections and checks and balances to go out of wack and the majority voted in the people who made these laws. I saw just the other day some town sent a man to jail for not having finished the siding on his home.... Really??? land of the free? not anymore....

Fast and Felonious is just a symptom of our larger illness as a nation... We have a large percentage of our nation that simply knows nothing more about laws and politics than what they read on a bumper sticker... Going to give me free this or free that... of course everyone votes for that person regardless of any party... heaven forbid we make our own way in the world.

My point isnt really political at all, my point is we as a nation of voters have failed ourselves and until the masses know more about politics than sports and media programs its going to stay this way.

I certainly believe the administration as a whole is criminally liable in the Fast and Felonious matter but it is what the majority voted in. The guys and gals in uniform are doing what the majority voted for and unfortunately it seems little of the land of the free and the home of the brave is still free...
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Old March 22, 2012, 08:55 AM   #2094
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Quote:
They could also seek, and obtain subpenas, ordering the production of documents, couldn't they?
The latest revelation - that Agent Hope McAlister detained and interrogated the prime target of Fast & Furious and then let him go in May 2010 - is clearly covered by already existing subpoenas and should have been given to the committee; but was not.

From what I understand, DOJ hasn't even provided a privilege log (i.e. here are documents that are relevant to your request but that we are not turning over due to various legal privileges) identifying what documents they are withholding, which is extremely unusual for an investigation that has been ongoing for over a year now.

It appears to me that DOJ is going to force the contempt issue. For some reason, they appear to think that this is a winner in the general election.
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Old March 22, 2012, 04:15 PM   #2095
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For some reason, they appear to think that this is a winner in the general election.
I beleive that as bad as all this is going into an election, if the whole story and real truth were known - it would be far far worse.

It's an adminstration using the power of the Federal Government to precipitate an event that would sway public opinion. It's an administration using the power of the Federal Government against the people of the United States.

This thing with the subpeona... I would think that if congress had subpoened information, hadn't gotten it, and then an investigative reporter turns that information up - that would be an automatic trip for contempt proceedings.

This also highlights a problem that Holder has in trying to keep the lid on all of this - he has people in a number of places that are opposed to the cover-up and they keep leaking information.
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Old March 24, 2012, 02:01 AM   #2096
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I ran across this yesterday and searched the thread around the time it came out -- September 28, 2011 -- but I can't find any reference to it. Is it possible that everyone here missed this; or was my search flawed?

I cannot, however, find anywhere in the body of the article the quote attributed to Ms. Morales in the headline.

SOURCE

Quote:
September 28, 2011
Mexican attorney general: "Obama more involved in Fast & Furious than admitted!"

Jim Kouri
Law Enforcement Examiner

President Barack Obama appears to be getting it from all sides regarding a government snafu dubbed Operation Fast and Furious. Besides both houses of the U.S. Congress and a number of public-interest groups investigating what is being characterized as a rogue federal law enforcement operation, Mexico's attorney general is infuriated over the allegations that the U.S. was behind the smuggling of weapons into Mexico that ended up killing her countrymen.
Continue reading on Examiner.com Mexican attorney general: "Obama more involved in Fast & Furious than admitted!" - National Law Enforcement | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcem...#ixzz1q0yqvWQH
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old March 24, 2012, 10:26 PM   #2097
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Re what JimPeel posted, I have no doubt at all about the Mexican AG being "on point", re Obama being up to his eyebrows in this entire mess.

That having been said, who is going to bring charges against him, certainly not his Attorney General, or the Senate, with it's Democratic majority.

As for the Republicans, has Republican leadership done anything to back the inquiries of Congressman Issa or Senator Grassley?
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Old March 25, 2012, 07:52 PM   #2098
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While skimming some news sites i saw an article which reported what I have suspected all along. The article stated that Congressman Issa has a source in the DOJ who has been providing him documents. Has anyone else seen this article.
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Old March 26, 2012, 01:02 AM   #2099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post
That having been said, who is going to bring charges against him, certainly not his Attorney General, or the Senate, with it's Democratic majority.
The Republic of Mexico could bring charges and try him in absentia; because there is no was he would show up for a trial.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old March 26, 2012, 11:59 AM   #2100
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Again, we are getting off topic. If we want to discuss Gunrunner, Fast & Furious, or issues relating directly to the Congressional investigation, by all means do so.

However, broad critiques of the President or current administration are off-limits.
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