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Old February 24, 2012, 12:42 PM   #2051
gc70
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We have already seen testimony that some of the F&F gunwalking involved getting guns through border checkpoints. The Border Patrol is part of Homeland Security and does not take orders from ATF or US Attorneys; that type of understanding has to be reached between Homeland Security and DOJ.
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Old February 24, 2012, 01:24 PM   #2052
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I just thought about this...

OK, so the guns that were used to murder agent Zapata didn't come from F&F.

Rep Michael McCaul's question was:

Quote:
“So you can’t conclusively say one way or the other whether there’s a link to these weapons and Fast & Furious?”
She said
Quote:
That’s true
If CBS news can turn evidence showing were these guns came from - and it was another gun running operation but not F&F - Napolitano had to have known. She knew that the guns came from some BATFE operation - just not F&F. She did know conclusively that the guns were not from F&F.

How could she not have known a year afterward? If the info wasn't out there - how could CBS have turned it up last week?

Janet Napolitano is doing the same thing Holder is... someone who is that out of touch with what is going on can't possibly run an organization. She is can't possibly run Homeland Security and be that ignorant of the Zapata case.

And they play semantics... everything depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
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Old February 24, 2012, 06:05 PM   #2053
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C0untZer0, re your post #2044:

I guess that nobody ever told Janet about "going to hell for lying, just like for stealing", or if they did, she didn't believe them.

Is "the plot thickens" appropriate?
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Old February 24, 2012, 06:15 PM   #2054
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At this point in time, would it be using an overly broad brush to "paint the following word picture"?

There is nothing about the Obama Administration that is not rotten to the core, at least respecting Executive Branch Agencies?
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Old February 24, 2012, 10:12 PM   #2055
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Quote:
At this point in time, would it be using an overly broad brush to "paint the following word picture"?
Yes it would, and we don't do pure politics.
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Old February 24, 2012, 10:44 PM   #2056
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Operation White Gun?

I am starting to wonder if the Zapata murder weapons came from operation White Gun.

The story of the existence of that operation was broken by the LA Times. That is suspect in itself because the LA Times, much like MSNBC has largely ignored the story, until they started squaking about operation Wide Receiver and how it originated under the Bush administration. Certainly the LA Times has not been investigating the story.

There are some who have speculated that the story of Operation White Gun was given to the LA Times by sources in the Obama administration. The tought goes that it's much better to have the LA Times or MSNBC report on it than have Sharyl Attkisson or Fox news break the story.

In the LA Times story:

Quote:
Officials from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives declined to comment on whether any firearms were lost in White Gun. But unlike Fast and Furious, they vigorously defended the previously unreported White Gun operation as a well-managed investigation that produced three arrests and convictions.
They certainly put this operation in a good light... but despite the postive spin - they can't say that guns didn't wind up in the hands of cartel members.

The DOJ has done a pretty good job of bottling up info about White Gun, I have't heard a single word of it for over a month.
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Old February 25, 2012, 07:11 PM   #2057
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Quote:
Let's be careful to keep this related to guns, and not drift into straight politics.
Why related to guns? This section needs not guns in the discussion... Just civil rights (ALL OF THEM) or law... This is the only section not needing guns in the discussion except the huntin' section...

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Old February 25, 2012, 10:38 PM   #2058
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Quote:
This is the only section not needing guns in the discussion except the huntin' section.
Well, I suppose it'd be correct of me to admit I misspoke, but that would entail admitting a mistake. Instead, I will deny everything and insist I was misquoted. Sir, I am flabbergasted by your attempt to disgrace my good name!

Really, good point, and my bad. Been a long week.

Let's all avoid pure politics, though.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:10 PM   #2059
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Tom Servo closed one post with the following,

"Let's all avoid pure politics, though."
-------------------------------------

How about "impure politics", which seems to describe the antics of Obama et al re firearms in general and Fast & Furious in particular.

Having no desire to get into an argument with anyone, I will close here.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:26 PM   #2060
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Quote:
How about "impure politics", which seems to describe the antics of Obama et al re firearms in general and Fast & Furious in particular.
The thread is about Fast & Furious, Gunrunner, and the peripheral issues, as long as they are relevant to that topic.
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Old February 28, 2012, 10:08 AM   #2061
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From post #2007:
Quote:
Reading the Sipsey Street Irregulars occasionally throughout this story, as a source of fresh information, I wonder if the recent rumors suggesting that Boehner may be stalling the investigation for a politically motivated fall impeachment of Holder carry any weight.
From Buckeye Firearms Association website:
Quote:
In recent days allegations have been made in a number of Internet publications that Speaker of the House John Boehner was somehow sabotaging the Fast and Furious probe. Any number of reasons were given for Speaker Boehner's opposition to the Oversight Committee investigation, all of which are false.
Link to full article.
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Old March 2, 2012, 09:43 PM   #2062
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I was wondering why there isn't a Wikipedia entry for Fast & Furious yet (not the car movie)

There are Wikipedia entries for Whitewater, Iran -Contra, Watergate etc...

But nothing on Fast & Furious.
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Old March 2, 2012, 10:41 PM   #2063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C0untZer0
I was wondering why there isn't a Wikipedia entry for Fast & Furious yet
Because you haven't written it!
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Old March 3, 2012, 12:06 AM   #2064
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I'll call Dave Workman on Monday and get him started on it.
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Old March 3, 2012, 12:44 AM   #2065
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
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Old March 3, 2012, 12:53 AM   #2066
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^ Super cool

I was looking for "Fast & Furious" specifically and when I searched I didn't see anything in Wikipedia on it, at least not on the first page.
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Old March 3, 2012, 07:27 PM   #2067
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poptime's link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal) takes one to what appears to be a thorough, well documented article.
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Old March 3, 2012, 09:15 PM   #2068
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Quote:
poptime's link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal) takes one to what appears to be a thorough, well documented article.
I second that!
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Old March 5, 2012, 09:33 AM   #2069
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One issue I note is that the Wikipedia article repeats the "There is no law against firearms trafficking" statement. There are some problems with this statement since:

1. There is a law against dealing in firearms as a business without an FFL and there is a law against straw purchasing (18 USC 922 (a)(6))
2. While the straw purchasers in Fast and Furious did not receive a large sentence, federal law allowed for them to receive as much as 10 years in prison (18 U.S.C. Sec. 921) for the crime. The fact that these sentences aren't being handed out isn't a problem with our laws; but rather the way those laws are administered.
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Old March 5, 2012, 11:34 AM   #2070
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^ I noticed that too. I was thinking of contacting the author to notify him of that, but I am busy writing letters to the Executive Committee of the Illinois House concerning the recent anti-gun legislation that was drafted.
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Old March 5, 2012, 11:38 AM   #2071
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Bartholomew Roberts,

If you see something inaccurate in Wikipedia, change it! Here is how it works from About Wikipedia:

Quote:
Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles (except in certain cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism).

People of all ages, cultures and backgrounds can add or edit article prose, references, images and other media here. What is contributed is more important than the expertise or qualifications of the contributor. What will remain depends upon whether it fits within Wikipedia's policies, including being verifiable against a published reliable source, so excluding editors' opinions and beliefs and unreviewed research, and is free of copyright restrictions and contentious material about living people. Contributions cannot damage Wikipedia because the software allows easy reversal of mistakes and many experienced editors are watching to help and ensure that edits are cumulative improvements. Begin by simply clicking the edit link at the top of any editable page!
Providing citations of federal laws about dealer licensing, straw purchases, interstate and international sales and transportation and the penalties for violating those laws should put to rest the false assertion that "There is no law against firearms trafficking."
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:51 PM   #2072
alan
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Bartholomew Roberts in post 2067 pointed out what is a serious error in what appeared to be a good article, "there is no law against firearms trafficking". One wonders as to how come this very basic error.
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Old March 5, 2012, 10:19 PM   #2073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan
Bartholomew Roberts in post 2067 pointed out what is a serious error in what appeared to be a good article, "there is no law against firearms trafficking". One wonders as to how come this very basic error.
The statement may be technically correct, while functionally inaccurate.

The following is from the Congressional Research Service report Gun Trafficking and the Southwest Border, published September 21, 2009:

Quote:
(page 2) “Gun trafficking,” although not defined by statute, essentially includes the movement or diversion of firearms from legal to illegal markets. This report includes legal analyses of three ATF-investigated, Southwest border gun trafficking cases to illustrate the federal statutes that are typically violated as part of wider gun trafficking schemes.

(page 6) Four federal statutes govern U.S. commerce of firearms domestically and internationally. Many states supplement these federal statutes and have firearms laws of their own that are more strict. For example, some states require permits to obtain firearms and impose a waiting period for firearm transfers. Domestic commerce and importations into the United States are generally regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) and the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). The exportation of firearms from the United States is regulated by the Arms Export Control Act of 1976 and, to a lesser extent, the Export Administration Regulations (EAR).
We know what activities are involved in "gun trafficking" and there are laws against the separate activities, but there is no federal law that specifically defines the term "gun trafficking" and makes it constituent activities illegal.
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Old March 6, 2012, 04:35 AM   #2074
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Quote:
Bartholomew Roberts,

If you see something inaccurate in Wikipedia, change it! Here is how it works from About Wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org] :
Easier said than done. There are ongoing problems on Wikipedia where Militant Atheists delete factual information on prominent Christian philosophers to downplay their credentials and accomplishments. You could very well see the same happen with militant anti-gunners in regards to this subject. Don't get into an edit war or else your account will get banned on Wikipedia.

Just a friendly word of warning. Don't know if it will happen or not, just giving you a heads up. Wikipedia is great for non-controversial subjects, but there are some spotty areas.
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Old March 6, 2012, 12:21 PM   #2075
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It doesn't seem to me that anti-gunners are aware of it.

The article seems for the most part to be free of bias. There are some things in there that are debatable - such as the intent of some of these operations, but the author has listed the stated intent of BATFE.

In response to this paragraph in the article:

Quote:
Even the low–level cases are problematic because there is no federal firearms trafficking law. This makes cases difficult to prosecute and forces law enforcement to use a variety of laws without stringent penalties. For example, in a recent case in San Juan, Texas, under existing 1968 Gun Control Act provisions on straw purchasing (Title 18 United States Code, Section 924(a)(1)(A)), straw purchaser Taisa Garcia received 33 months and buyer Marco Villalobos received 46 months, plus two years supervision after release.
I think it's reasonable to inform the author of the actual sentencing guidelines for straw purchasing.
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