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Old May 9, 2011, 01:49 PM   #176
Falcon642
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Story this morning of how the Department of Justice is trying to deflect blame for Project Gunrunner to local officials.

Quote:
“As the department has stated, the Fast and Furious operation was approved by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona and the ATF Phoenix Field Office,” Schmaler told TheDC. “The investigation was subsequently approved by the multi-agency Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) Program.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/...localofficials

Guess they've stalled long enough to get their cover stories straight. This is probably the first shot in the big cover up. Here's hoping local officials realize they are being sold out and start to sing like canaries.
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Old May 10, 2011, 04:38 PM   #177
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http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...chain-bad.html

A long post from one of the people who broke the story originally.

Are you starting to connect the dots? This involved not only the ATF and DoJ but also DEA, State Department and more.

Another interesting thread on another forum: PAFOA.ORG
Pennsylvania's leading gun forum. The thread is under National news and has now 28 pages.

As I said there, we know the media is willing to look the other way but where the hell is the outcry from more members of congress?

If your Congress-critter gets a good grade from the NRA and is not raising hell about this issue then he/she is useless and so are the NRA!

Obama is now courting the Latino vote in the SW. Campaign time is upon us. Will anyone ask the tough questions of how this scandal was allowed to go forward?

Last edited by 2guns; May 11, 2011 at 11:42 AM.
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Old May 12, 2011, 11:15 AM   #178
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David Workman (Seattle Gun Rights Examiner) has some disclosures by BATF agent Dobyns, who asserts that both the President and Eric Holder knew of the project.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...ate-took-place
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Old May 12, 2011, 08:31 PM   #179
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_860528.html

Now the Obama administration is serious.....about putting a nice face on this scandal. Hiring a Public relations guy to run cover for them is a sign they are feeling the heat.

Keep pushing!
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Old May 12, 2011, 09:57 PM   #180
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Hiring a Public relations guy to run cover for them is a sign they are feeling the heat.
Schultz did a lot for the Democratic party during the last mid-terms, and he might have helped a few Senators hold onto their seats. He's previously worked as an assistant to Charles Schumer.

Nice way of repaying him by throwing him before the wolves, I'd say.

...which is exactly what those sympathetic to the administration are subtly trying to paint Issa as. Sadly, I do expect to see personal attacks levied at the man.
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Old May 13, 2011, 05:29 AM   #181
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They hired a public relations guy to to the BS Tap Dance. Which means another cover up and no transparency as promised by Obama. Dobyns hit the nail right on the head.

I think the heat needs to be turned up by Rep. Issa. Because with Holder at the helm of the DOJ this stuff will never see the light of day.
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Old May 13, 2011, 08:42 AM   #182
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Not only did they hire a PR guy; but did you see his past resume? Acted as press for Edwards during the allegations of his extramarital affair, press for Franken during 2008 recount campaign, etc.

It seems this particular PR guy specializes in uh, "difficult" PR. Now my big question is did they hire him to help ATF with Issa or did they hire him to make sure that none of that ends up splattering on the White House?
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Old May 14, 2011, 05:54 PM   #183
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A very long post but well worth reading.

I think it makes clear the answer to the above question; The PR crew recently hired by team Obama is very interested in insuring that this does not come back to haunt the president as he gears up for the re-election campaign.

Furthermore, I think this most recent post indicates there is no doubt that AG Holder and O himself knew and approved this scheme.

Go read it all:

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...gunwalker.html
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Old May 14, 2011, 09:25 PM   #184
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Reading the link that 2guns supplied seems to say the DOJ (Eric Holder) knew what was happening and also approved of it.

If the DOJ runs like most departments of the government, Holder gets a daily or weekly update on all ongoing cases.
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Old May 14, 2011, 10:03 PM   #185
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After reading that article and others it seems that widespread corrupt FFL Holders selling guns to the cartel were a myth created for PR Purposes. Most of the stuff I have read is that the gun dealers were being good guys and reporting straw man attempts to the ATF. The ATF was telling them to go ahead with the sale.

After reading the stories of Carter Country being bought before a federal grand jury and after the facts were bought to light that they were cooperating at the request of the ATF the case slid into oblivion. Which leads me to beleive that some of the local U.S. Attorneys were not in on the operation because they might have brought it to a screeching halt.

It had to be embarrising to the U.S. Attorneys office to find out via the suspect's lawyer that the ATF was behind it. Even fishier that the ATF didn't give him a warning before he started a grand jury on it.
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Old May 14, 2011, 10:34 PM   #186
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Just so it's preserved, I did download the Cartel Strategy document. Oh, and I uploaded it here.

It's every bit as incriminating as Mike posits.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Cartel_Strategy.pdf (370.0 KB, 53 views)
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Old May 15, 2011, 06:04 AM   #187
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Al Norris:

Thanks for preserving the info.
It is good to have someone with tech skills to handle such items.
We surely don't want this stuff to mysteriously disappear.

Best,
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Old May 17, 2011, 02:35 PM   #188
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Issa claims: "“We’re not done but what we do know is that the decision for this was not made in Tucson or El Paso or anywhere else,” he said. “It was made in Washington."

I wonder what the difference is between knowing that Project Gunrunner originated in Washington, and proving that Project Gunrunner originated in Washington.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/17/is...in-washington/
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Old May 17, 2011, 04:33 PM   #189
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I wonder what the difference is between knowing that Project Gunrunner originated in Washington, and proving that Project Gunrunner originated in Washington.
"Knowing" isn't always proof. I know that Hugo Schmeisser invented the AK-47, but I can't prove it with any evidence beyond circumstantial.

The trick is, Holder could have known that there was an initiative called Operation Gunrunner. He might have known its broad parameters. However, if we're to allege that he knew (and approved) of a specific policy of allowing guns to "walk," we're going to need hard evidence. That's a huge accusation, and one with far-reaching consequences. If we make it without proof, we lose a great deal of credibility.

The agents I spoke with in my field division were aware of certain initiatives, but they never suspected that guns were being allowed over the border. They were as shocked as the rest of us, and many opined that somebody at the Phoenix division had gone seriously off the reservation. Though they seemed surprised, a couple conceded that there are folks in the Bureau who possessed such a combination of headstrong and stupid qualities.
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Old May 17, 2011, 05:40 PM   #190
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and high volume trafficking investigations in which over an extended period ATF cannot reasonably determine where or to whom such firearms are being trafficked. SACs must closely monitor and approve such investigations, assessing the risks associated with prolonged investigation with limited or delayed interdiction.
Sounds like it doesn't need to be proven, since it was OKed when that PDF doc was written. Maybe whoever wrote the document should be charged for giving the official okee-dokee to go wild west as long as the SAC monitors it.:barf:
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Old May 17, 2011, 06:04 PM   #191
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You can delegate authority but not responsibility. Holder is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that goes on in DOJ. If he did not know of an approved policy or "initiative" then he should have, otherwise he delegated without proper follow-up or supervision. An approving signature carries with it responsibility for whatever whether one asks questions or not. The head of a department is responsible for everything, for who is appointed, promoted, and whatever actions they take on behalf of the dept.
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Old May 18, 2011, 05:18 AM   #192
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Quote:
The trick is, Holder could have known that there was an initiative called Operation Gunrunner. He might have known its broad parameters. However, if we're to allege that he knew (and approved) of a specific policy of allowing guns to "walk," we're going to need hard evidence.
A gunwalking policy was apparently approved by someone. Who would think he has the authority to make a decision like that one that affects foreign policy with a neighbor country?

My thought is, if I were Attorney General and someone came to me asking for approval for something like this, I would go to the President. Foreign policy is the President's job, not the AG's. I do not think Holder has the authority to approve this. Only Obama does, in my opinion.
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Old May 18, 2011, 07:18 AM   #193
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As I said there, we know the media is willing to look the other way but where the hell is the outcry from more members of congress?
The other members of congress could care less about our gun rights; they just talk a good line at re-election time and when indundated by mail from gunowners of their districts. Congress is not interested in this shenanigan by the BATFE and the US Justice Dep't.

Unless congress steps up to the plate no action will ever be taken against any person who was involved in this sorry affair. Congress will only become involved when hundreds of thousands gunowners write to their congressmen. Griping on pro-gun forums does not count: Write your congressman today.
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Old May 18, 2011, 09:35 AM   #194
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A gunwalking policy was apparently approved by someone.
Right, but was the actual idea to "walk" guns approved by someone in Washington, or did it originate from rogue operatives in the Phoenix division? Folks higher up the chain will claim the latter, and if we're to call them out, we'll need hard proof. That could be hard to get.
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Old May 18, 2011, 01:13 PM   #195
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According to CBS News, there have been some interesting resassignments/replacements at the Phoenix office of the ATF:

Special Agent in Charge (SAC) Bill Newell has been reassigned to ATF Headquarters in Washington DC and replaced by former Detroit SAC, Tom Brandon.

ASAC George Gillett (now cooperating with Rep. Issa) has also been reassigned to ATF headquarters in D.C.

The other Phoenix ASAC, Jim Needles, Agent David Voth, who directly supervised Fast and Furious, and Agent Hope McAllister have all been assigned to the U.S. Attorney's office in Phoenix.
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Old May 18, 2011, 02:00 PM   #196
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Quote:
According to CBS News, there have been some interesting resassignments/replacements at the Phoenix office of the ATF:

Special Agent in Charge (SAC) Bill Newell has been reassigned to ATF Headquarters in Washington DC and replaced by former Detroit SAC, Tom Brandon.

ASAC George Gillett (now cooperating with Rep. Issa) has also been reassigned to ATF headquarters in D.C.

The other Phoenix ASAC, Jim Needles, Agent David Voth, who directly supervised Fast and Furious, and Agent Hope McAllister have all been assigned to the U.S. Attorney's office in Phoenix.
Would these moves be akin to "circling the wagons"?

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Old May 18, 2011, 05:20 PM   #197
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Would these moves be akin to "circling the wagons"?
Sort of. More precisely, it means the transfers make it appear as if ATF is doing something while it really is not. The transferred agents apparently haven't been disciplined, I bet because they would point the finger at higher authority.
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Old May 19, 2011, 05:31 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Right, but was the actual idea to "walk" guns approved by someone in Washington, or did it originate from rogue operatives in the Phoenix division? Folks higher up the chain will claim the latter, and if we're to call them out, we'll need hard proof. That could be hard to get.
Once this "roge operative" is identified, we simply ask him where he got the authority to make US foreign policy with respect to Mexico? If he has no answer, he is really a rogue and will be hung out to dry. I suspect he has an answer...
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Old May 19, 2011, 08:39 AM   #199
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Law and Order, SVI (my wife likes it, sigh) had a convoluted plot which in part centered on guns from an ATF Mexican operation coming to NYC and being involved in a rape/murder. Interestingly, it ended with the ATF agent being arrested by the NYPD with the agent's ATF supervisor happily cooperating with the NYPD.

Not a progun statement intended, just a plot point.
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Old May 19, 2011, 10:36 PM   #200
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It's been confirmed. Earlier today, I had read a report by Mike Vanderbough and David Codera that the DEA had "accidentally" uncovered some 5 dozen AK-47 style firearms in what was supposed to be a drug bust.

This has now been confirmed by another source:

DEA accidentally finds guns from ATF "gunwalker"
by Sharyl Attkisson, CBS News Investigative Reporter.
Quote:
At least two suspects were arrested in the April 13 DEA gun bust. Since then, sources say ATF and DEA have been in a tug of war over who should hold the weapons. The DEA is said to want to keep the weapons (and its own case) separate from ATF controversy. Today, the Dept. of Justice, which oversees DEA and ATF, provided no immediate comment or information.
Do I need to say what happens if the ATF gets their hands on those rifles?
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