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Old December 20, 2011, 02:29 PM   #1751
brickeyee
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Quote:
The Form 4473 is one of the fruits of the 1968 Gun Control Act and has been a part of federal law since then. In fact, up until 1986, you were not only required to fill out a Form 4473 for firearms; but for purchases of handgun ammo as well.
A 4473 has never been required for handgun ammunition.

A separate log book was used and a drivers license was normally all that was required to check age and residence.

And reloading components could not be shipped, they had to be sold face to face.
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Old December 20, 2011, 07:20 PM   #1752
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Re the AG's comments on "racism" I decided to send my thoughts to the gentleman, yes the term "gentleman" is loosely used, so I wrote out a reasonably polite, brief note and emailed it to a linked address found on DOJ’s web site.

First time I sent it, it came back undelivered. Second time I sent it, same results.

So this is the "open. transparent government" that the president speaks of, what a laugh, or could it be that people at DOJ are so incompetent that they couldn't create a web site that provides the citizen with a correct email address? Either way, whichever of the two possibilities fit, the picture presented is indeed a sad one.
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Old December 21, 2011, 11:44 AM   #1753
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^^^They may be getting more feedback than they can stand. On the other hand, they determine what law will be enforced on who, so why would they care what the proles think.
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Old December 21, 2011, 02:34 PM   #1754
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They aren't using gmail.com with a large storage capacity... someone oughta send 'em a gmail invite so they can get all the mail they so desperately would love not to lose due to all the overwhelming emails of support from their friends.

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Old December 26, 2011, 06:15 AM   #1755
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In an article about former Director Melson's July 4th testimony, Richard Serrano at the LA Times is up to his old tricks, spreading the propaganda:

Quote:
Under the program, devised to help agents follow weapons from gun stores to Mexican cartel leaders, about 2,000 firearms were lost.
And cleverly devised it was! Reviewing Agent Dodson's testimony...



The plan was: follow the straw purchasers no matter which way the guns go, and inform no one in Mexico that the guns are on the way. That way, agents can follow the guns from stores to Mexican cartel leaders!

Wait, that won't work, will it?

Maybe no one in government is smart enough to realize that it won't work. Or the plan was devised for some other purpose.

I'm hoping it's the latter, I guess. I'm not sure whether "stupid as a box of rocks" is better than "lying" or not. Anyone?
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Old December 26, 2011, 10:20 AM   #1756
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I am not sure what the deal is with the DOJ e-mail system but having worked for large corporations, I know that the mail boxes get backed up every night to tape, and there are rotations of tapes, some are kept for 30 to 60 days, some tapes are kept for 6 months. Some are archived longer... financial institutions for instance are required to keep e-mail records involving transactions for 7 years. There is usually a system called "legal hold" for making sure e-mails wih critical legal information don't get deleted.

I don't know how long DOJ keeps backups of their e-mail system - maybe they don't keep e-mails backups more than 30 days, but Issa could subpeona the IT department head/director for the electronic documents.

I think it would be interesting first of all to see how far in the past they have the mailboxes backed up, and to see the reaction of Holder to the request.
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Old December 26, 2011, 03:00 PM   #1757
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publius42: Thanks for that heads up.

My letter to the Editor of the L.A. Times:

Quote:
Mr. Serrano states in the article: " Under the program, devised to help agents follow weapons from gun stores to Mexican cartel leaders, about 2,000 firearms were lost."

This is patently false. The weapons were not "lost." From the sworn testimony of Agent Dodson:

"... we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing."

Does that sound like the firearms were "lost?"
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Old December 27, 2011, 12:23 AM   #1758
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All those guns from Operation Fast and Furious were not "lost", they were distributed as intended, I submit, going into the hands of criminals.

The remaining question or questions revolve around why the above referenced intentions. In my perhaps jaundiced view "why" is explained as follows. To provide political cover to a very significant push for additional, draconian gun legislation, which would essentially amount to ever more restrictions on the law abiding. There seems no other point to the entire fiasco.
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Old December 27, 2011, 05:53 AM   #1759
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Kingpin law?

I was half asleep,half listening to the radio.Lets call this a lead,a maybe,rather than fact for now.
The man I was listening to was J.P Stienbauer,and a site PJ Media was mentioned.
Mr Steinbauer said he was in on writing a law called the Kingpin Act,which outlaws having dealings with drug cartels,Sorry I can;t be more specific.The Kingpin law requires some waiver or license from the Treasury Dept for a deal like Gunrunner to occur.This would be in Timothy Geigner's territory.Mr Steinbauer said there are serious prison terms and huge fines for violating this law.
Then Mr Steinbauer explained that if this waiver was granted,it would prove the claims of "no prior knowledge" were a lie.

This seems like it could besome traction for the good guys.

Maybe you folks with a better knowledge of law could check it out
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Old December 27, 2011, 06:08 PM   #1760
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Pretty unfunny how we have all the nanny laws, and yet the administration (in my opinion) seems to have no problem with outright murder of US Agents and citizens...

I think the whole system is in need of a "Reset Button"... We the voters have taken governmental disfunction to a whole new level....
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Old December 27, 2011, 10:24 PM   #1761
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BGutzman:

I believe that there is the "reset" button you mentioned.

Seems however, regarding the retention rates amongst our congress critters, that the electorate is most reticent concerning use of same, I often wonder as to why this is.
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Old December 27, 2011, 11:55 PM   #1762
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We the voters have taken governmental disfunction to a whole new level.
We, the voting populace, have. We get the government we deserve. Things didn't get this way through the machinations of some insidious secret cabal. They got this way because the public let them, through apathy and indifference.

Part of the reason this whole story hasn't blown up in the media is that the same media can count on that indifference and placate us with tales of what Snooky did when she was drunk last weekend.

Don't believe me? Next time you're at the range and someone brings this whole situation up in conversation, ask them if they've contacted their congressman about it. I guarantee they haven't. We make the mistake of assuming that, because our cause is somewhat political in nature, that we're more involved than the rest of the populace. Sadly, I've not found that to be true.
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Old December 28, 2011, 11:10 AM   #1763
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Part of the reason this whole story hasn't blown up in the media is that the same media can count on that indifference and placate us with tales of what Snooky did when she was drunk last weekend.
So, you're saying the media is controlled? Who, or what entity, controls it?
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Old December 28, 2011, 11:55 AM   #1764
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Nobody said that. The liberal slant to the news reported by the generally leftist members of the press tend to give a pass to the leftists in power, as demonstrated by the lack of reporting on Dear Leader stating he is not bound by the laws he signs just yesterday, not just the general lack of interest in Fast And Furious plus all the lethal off shoot programs coming to light.
They control themselves, and do so to protect those they love.
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Old December 28, 2011, 12:13 PM   #1765
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They control themselves, and do so to protect those they love.
You're saying they are controlled by their ideology?
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Old December 28, 2011, 12:29 PM   #1766
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You're saying they are controlled by their ideology?
Yes, IMO, that's about it. "All the news that fits...". WaPo is twisting itself into highly complex shapes trying to promote the meme Obama's ideas are "evolving" in a rightward slant, while "conservatives" whose ideas "evolve" always move left. Those who don't evolve are Neanderthals, at best.
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Old December 28, 2011, 12:51 PM   #1767
alan
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Tom Servo:

Respecting your last, I did that ay my local gun club a number of years ago, phrasing the question as follows:

On any issue, no matter witch side of the thing you happen to be on, when was the last time you contacted either n appointed or elected official re your concern.

As you might expect, I got a lot of blank looks and then there were a couple of comments running along the following line or lines, I don't know who they are, or I can't write or I don't have time ad so forth and so on.

To say that it gets discouraging is something of an understatement, but one does what one thinks necessary and or worth while.
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Old December 28, 2011, 02:10 PM   #1768
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You're saying they are controlled by their ideology?
Lose the fascination with the buzzword "control", and rather say they are motivated by their ideology and beliefs, much the same as we are by ours. I believe, and believe in the evidence supporting that belief, that they are wrong, and that they are actively are supporting an agenda that advances the destruction of the Constitution of the United States of America, and the representative democracy it defines.
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Old December 28, 2011, 07:24 PM   #1769
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I am not sure what the deal is with the DOJ e-mail system but having worked for large corporations, I know that the mail boxes get backed up every night to tape, and there are rotations of tapes, some are kept for 30 to 60 days, some tapes are kept for 6 months. Some are archived longer... financial institutions for instance are required to keep e-mail records involving transactions for 7 years. There is usually a system called "legal hold" for making sure e-mails wih critical legal information don't get deleted.

I don't know how long DOJ keeps backups of their e-mail system - maybe they don't keep e-mails backups more than 30 days, but Issa could subpeona the IT department head/director for the electronic documents.

I think it would be interesting first of all to see how far in the past they have the mailboxes backed up, and to see the reaction of Holder to the request.
There is a federal records law that covers the retaining of all government records. There are various times for different types of information, but I think the minimum is three years, some things are much longer. Emails do count as government records.
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Old December 28, 2011, 10:48 PM   #1770
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To say that it gets discouraging is something of an understatement, but one does what one thinks necessary and or worth while.
It would be easier if the aforementioned folks wouldn't insist on riding our coattails and blaming us when things don't go the way they want them to.

Example? Let's presume that most folks who are angry at the current state of affairs identify as Republicans. Republican turnout in the 2008 election was 28%. That means that roughly three quarters of the people who've yelled at me about how unhappy they are with the current situation couldn't even take the time to vote. When they find out I'm active, they ask why I haven't done more for them. Yeesh.
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Old December 29, 2011, 06:52 AM   #1771
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and the representative democracy it defines.
I believe that should read "and the representative republic it defines".
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Old December 30, 2011, 12:25 AM   #1772
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I skipped "republic"? Heavens. That's even in my version of the Pledge.
I pledge allegiance, to the Constitution of the United States of American, and to the Republic which it defines, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

My bad.
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Old December 30, 2011, 09:44 AM   #1773
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All politics aside which is where this thread is nose diving:
Quote:
Don't believe me? Next time you're at the range and someone brings this whole situation up in conversation, ask them if they've contacted their congressman about it. I guarantee they haven't.
I don't need to my dude is leading the charge and already signed on to request resignation. Not all in congress are created equal.
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Old December 30, 2011, 07:12 PM   #1774
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My point is that the politicial situation is the symptom, the voters are the root cause of the political cancer...
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Old December 30, 2011, 09:37 PM   #1775
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My point is that the politicial situation is the symptom, the voters are the root cause of the political cancer.
Should we say "voters" or "citizens?" The reason I ask is so many citizens don't vote.

That point of quibblement aside, you've hit the nail squarely on the head, BGutzman. We have met the enemy, and he is us.
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