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Old April 29, 2011, 06:53 AM   #151
alloy
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May 1 is the deadline to take comments on the proposed change in rules.

It is after this that we will see what happens (and I believe the "fix" is already in). See this thread for links and to send your own responses in.
Thanks for the link. Sent one off, but you know....it's tough to write a coherent note, incorporating thoughts regarding the long gun reporting proposition, along with the topic of this thread, and the results of things like this:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/28...xican-cartels/
....and not come off as either extremely surly, or the writer of a Saturday Night Live skit.
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Old April 29, 2011, 10:19 PM   #152
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Welcome to the Party, Wayne (about damn time...).

This, from FoxNews:
Quote:
Sources tell Fox News that NRA Executive Director Wayne LaPierre will call for Holder's resignation in a Saturday morning speech at the NRA's annual meeting in Pittsburgh.
You can read the rest at the link.

Now this may be pure symbolism by Wayne, or it actually could mean the 800 lb. Gorilla is getting peeved. I hope it is the latter....
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Old April 30, 2011, 06:48 AM   #153
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"Welcome to the Party, Wayne (about damn time...)."

My sentiments precisely! The NRA has been very late in coming to this "party".

If MSM would pick this up it could be the undoing of their chosen messiah....uh but that's why they have not and will not. The latest reports on this scam reveal that it was approved by people far up the chain of command.

Keep pushing!
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Old April 30, 2011, 09:29 AM   #154
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One can hope that this can lead to some actual beneficial change.

I know, long hope, but still.

"approved by people far up the chain of command."

It's a long-held axiom that, if you don't know anything about something, it might be dangerous to mess with it. We can be pretty sure that most of the people "far up the chain" don't know much about guns.

Does anyone have any info on how much the average BATFE employee actually knows about guns?

I suspect that, the higher up the chain, the less knowledge.

Kinda like our government in general, I guess.

Best,

Will
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Old May 2, 2011, 04:23 PM   #155
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http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...l/david-codrea


There is still a lot of life left in this story.
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:02 PM   #156
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There is still a lot of life left in this story.
Unfortunately the news will be completely overshadowed by the death of Bin Laden. It is no coincidence that Holder is appearing before a Congressional committee tomorrow, that news will be COMPLETELY overshadowed by the continued reporting on Bin Laden.
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:13 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Falcon642
Unfortunately the news will be completely overshadowed by the death of Bin Laden. It is no coincidence that Holder is appearing before a Congressional committee tomorrow, that news will be COMPLETELY overshadowed by the continued reporting on Bin Laden.
Yes, it will be overshadowed; but I hope you're not seriously suggesting that the Abbottabad attack was deliberately timed to distract public attention from this hearing... that seems, um, improbable.
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:17 PM   #158
Bartholomew Roberts
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By the way, AG Holder's testimony in front of the House Judiciary Committee will be webcast live at www.judiciary.house.gov.

The testimony will occur Tuesday 5/3/2011 at 10:15 a.m. (Eastern).

Tune in tomorrow for the shenanigans!
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Old May 2, 2011, 05:38 PM   #159
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but I hope you're not seriously suggesting that the Abbottabad attack was deliberately timed to distract public attention from this hearing... that seems, um, improbable.
I'm suggesting just the opposite, that Holder agreed to go before a committee because Bin Laden was killed. There is no better time to let bad news happen, then when the public is distracted by some really good news.
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Old May 3, 2011, 07:10 AM   #160
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Tag.

I want to keep following this. I think the rot goes pretty far up the chain.

My thinking is this was a backdoor attempt to show "We need more restrictive gun laws to help our Southern Neighbor."

If they could show these guns were comming from the US and then demand more control, it would have been harder for law abiding citizen to protest.
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Old May 3, 2011, 05:20 PM   #161
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Here's a CBS story about Holder's testimony to Congress about Project Gunrunner. No big bombshells, just more denial. The story also has a video of Holder's testimony.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20059360-10391695.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody


Sure glad that CBS is following this since none of the other major news networks seem to give a damn.
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Old May 4, 2011, 05:55 AM   #162
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Was hoping some of that testimony might make it to U Toob but I see it hasn't yet.
Those CBS excerpts aren't exactly showing a man in authority saying "we will gladly cooperate and bring everyone associated with this debacle to the table until we get to the bottom of it"
But it's highly edited too, and likely edited with a bias.

Anyone able to see the entire testimony?
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:15 AM   #163
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In my opinion, Cong. Issa of CA line of questioning during the hearing before the House Oversight Committee, was the most poignant of all. I was not able to view the entire hearing so there may have been others who asked pertinent questions.

I believe Holder has been caught in a lie. He claimed that he only learned about the Project Gun-walker a "few weeks ago". He also attempted to brush off criticism by Issa with talk about ongoing investigations and a classic Clinton-speak; "I felt their pain."

Today during the Senate hearing the only person who asked any questions about this scheme was Grassley and as far as I am concerned he is useless. He can't even read the notes effectively.

Now we need to see what happens. Can Issa prove that Holder is lying? and if so what happens next? Will the cover-up continue in the wake of the AG testifying that he intends to fully cooperate? Will anyone at ATF be punished?

Stay tuned.
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Old May 4, 2011, 04:24 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Buck
My thinking is this was a backdoor attempt to show "We need more restrictive gun laws to help our Southern Neighbor."
I agree -- as long as

"backdoor attempt" = plot, conspiracy

This was not dreamed up and pulled off by a couple of rogue BATFE agents.
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Old May 4, 2011, 05:00 PM   #165
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This was not dreamed up and pulled off by a couple of rogue BATFE agents.
Well considering that there are now 12-15 whistleblowers working with Issa and Grassley, I'd say you are right that it is more than a couple. We also have Lanny Breuer and Emory Hurley named from the Department of Justice and some unnamed agents from other federal agencies who were apparently a part of the Fast and Furious task force.

Whoever is behind this clever plan has enough clout to form a multi-agency task force that includes DoJ, ATF, and DHS and then order said task force to violate treaties and standing agreements the U.S. has with neighboring countries. If that guy isn't close enough to Holder that Holder knows what he is doing, then why does he have that much power?
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Old May 4, 2011, 05:07 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by alloy
Was hoping some of that testimony might make it to U Toob but I see it hasn't yet.
Those CBS excerpts aren't exactly showing a man in authority saying "we will gladly cooperate and bring everyone associated with this debacle to the table until we get to the bottom of it"
But it's highly edited too, and likely edited with a bias.

Anyone able to see the entire testimony?
Video of the testimony can be found here along with a transcript. Be aware that you will have to search throughout the video for segments of Holder's House Judiciary Committee testimony re: Project Gunrunner as multiple subjects were covered by multiple questioners.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/JusticeDepartmentOve
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Old May 4, 2011, 08:03 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by 2Guns
Now we need to see what happens. Can Issa prove that Holder is lying? and if so what happens next? Will the cover-up continue in the wake of the AG testifying that he intends to fully cooperate? Will anyone at ATF be punished?
Of course someone will be punished. But they need the cover of the "investigation" to identify one or two or a few people low enough in the organization to not matter, yet high enough to make (somewhat) credible scapegoats. Once those individuals have been identified -- they'll be thrown under the proverbial bus, with appropriate fanfare, and life will continue unchanged.
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Old May 4, 2011, 08:59 PM   #168
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...unner-program/

made the front page on Foxnews today...
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Old May 4, 2011, 09:13 PM   #169
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The C-Span video direct link: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/J...DepartmentOve# The Issa questioning starts at 1:30:17.

Description: Attorney General Eric Holder testified before the House Judiciary Committee. Topics included the killing of Osama bin Laden, the threat from al-Qaeda, DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act), and the extensions of key provisions of the PATRIOT Act. Representative Darrell Issa questioned Attorney General Holder about the death of two border agents, suggesting the deaths were due to Justice Department policies. Attorney General Holder said the suggestion was "offensive."

If I had been a Rep. I would have told him flat out "If I find out that this debacle goes to your office I will do everything in my power to put you in prison; and if I get my way it will be a Mexican prison."
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Old May 4, 2011, 10:26 PM   #170
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Seems that Issa has documents that show that Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer approved wiretaps for Operation Fast and Furious, which strongly suggests that Breuer know about the Operation and what was going on.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...in;contentBody

So the scandal has risen to level of Assistant Attorney General, right now its like the Mississippi River, everyone holding their breath to see how high it will rise.
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Old May 4, 2011, 10:36 PM   #171
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While Holder and Breuer may try to pin this on mid-level scapegoats, thsoe very same people may see the writing on the wall and decide being a whistleblower/witness for the prosecution is better than scapegoat.

The longer this goes on the more likely momentum will build from the middle ranks to expose the top tier before their own heads are sent rolling.
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Old May 5, 2011, 01:50 AM   #172
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Sen. Grassley asked some hard questions and presented a document to Holder and of course, Holder feigned ignorance. He is the most know-nothing head of a government agency that I have ever witnessed.

There is a video at the link as well as the story.

SOURCE

Quote:
An internal memo from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives shows that U.S. officials allowed criminals to buy 1,318 guns worth nearly $1 million, even after they suspected the buyers were working for Mexican drug cartels, and that the agency's effort to stop the guns had "yielded little or no results."
More on that:

SOURCE

Not the first brush one of the whistle-blowers has had with BATFE incompetence.

Quote:
The ATF office in Phoenix, specifically Agent-in-Charge Bill Newell and his deputy, George Gillette, promised to protect Dobyns, but Dobyns says they didn't. He says the Hells Angels threatened to rape his wife and behead his children. Weeks later, Dobyns says the gang burned down his house with his family inside. Miraculously, they escaped.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

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Old May 5, 2011, 06:45 AM   #173
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The ATF office in Phoenix, specifically Agent-in-Charge Bill Newell and his deputy, George Gillette, promised to protect Dobyns, but Dobyns says they didn't. He says the Hells Angels threatened to rape his wife and behead his children. Weeks later, Dobyns says the gang burned down his house with his family inside. Miraculously, they escaped.
In a much less serious case, I have had personal experience with the kind of "protection" the Feds provide to witnesses who have received threats. I was such a witness/whistleblower. My "protection" was being given the direct office telephone number (not a cell phone number or home number, just the office "skip the operator" direct extension) of an agent in the next state. IF I had actually reached him in an emergency, he was a minimum of two hours away.

When a "situation" arose, I called the local police -- who asked why I was calling them since it was a Federal investigation.

Me: "Because it's 3:00 o'clock in the morning and I just received a telephone call threatening to kill me."

Dispatch: "What would you like us to do about it?"

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Old May 5, 2011, 06:50 AM   #174
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I was going to mention something similar to that Jimpeel, when the topic of the Phoenix office came up a few pages back, but decided against it.
Black Biscuit a few years ago included Cynthia Garcia's decapitation by a payrolled ATF associate, who was left on the payroll after the event was known...among other details that got alot of evidence tossed in the end and was another ATF Phoenix black eye.
Also a gun running escapade into Mexico....dancing with the devil in similar ways.
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Old May 7, 2011, 05:49 PM   #175
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Don't know if anyone mentioned it but yesterday when I was driving, I heard a very factual and thus damning report on the issue on NPR.

Holder didn't sound very convincing.

Surprisingly today, NPR had a report of a FL law stopping pediatricians from asking you about guns in the house. Very professional and interviewed M. Hammer and other RKBA people. They were convincing.
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