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Old November 21, 2011, 04:40 PM   #1551
BGutzman
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Quote:
It's hard to know where to start...
Nothing like using non facts and spinning factual information for a newspaper opinion.

This paper belongs in the bottom of a bird cage.... thanks for the link.
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Old November 21, 2011, 05:04 PM   #1552
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It's not an "article." It's an opinion piece authored by Carolyn Maloney. From the piece: "Maloney, a Democratic congresswoman, represents parts of Manhattan and Queens."
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Old November 21, 2011, 05:06 PM   #1553
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Just so everyone is aware, that was an op-ed piece by one of New York City's Representatives to Congress - it was most definitely not a news article.

It was basically "The Bush Administration started it and the Obama Administration stopped it" sort of rationalization for what happened. But on one point she does have a point - perhaps somewhere down the road, it would be nice to hear what Michael Mukasey and Alberto Gonzales have to say. I don't care if it's a Republican or Democrat administration. Gun-walking is utterly nuts.

I don't, though, buy for a second the notion that Eric Holder caught wind of Fast and Furious and put the brakes on it at once. If anything, I would accept the idea that Holder, by dint of being a poor manager and leader, had no idea what sort of major operations were underway in his department and once he found out what he should have known already, he enabled damage control mode. I'd accept that. But he's no heroic figure who put a stop to a corrupt operation. Not in my mind.
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Old November 21, 2011, 05:49 PM   #1554
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^^^Hardcase, Holder IMO was present at the birth of F+F, without the fine points of Wide Receiver, such as really tracing guns or taking down straw buyers. Those ideas were dropped because they weren't part of the objective. Holder might have stopped F+F as it zoomed out of control and into public view, and failed to produce the crisis his boss would fix...

The Obama regime has such a great batting average for bad ideas and failure it is impossible to write it all off to incompetence. Nobody is that consistently "successful".

Incompetence surely has a big role, mostly in being too clever by half or just blindly uninformed. It's not enough to explain what they have done and its patterns.
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Old November 21, 2011, 05:58 PM   #1555
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Its a sad fact that no high ranking political appointee, much less Holder, is ever going to be held accountable for F&F. i seriously doubt that any political appointee will ever be held accountable: They almost never are.
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Old November 21, 2011, 06:00 PM   #1556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep. Carolyn Maloney
But this initiative, which was identical to one launched under the Bush administration,
Unless Rep. Maloney has some knowledge she should be sharing with Congress, I am assuming she is referring to Wide Receiver, which as Sen. Cornyn already pointed out to AG Holder, has some significant differences with Fast and Furious. Among the differences are:

1. Mexican authorities were notified of the plan and attempted to interdict weapons that crossed into Mexico.

2. The ATF made an effort to put tracking devices on the weapons.

3. Wide Receiver was shut down as a scandalous failure when a little less than 250 guns went missing.

Quote:
As with all Washington scandals, one must look behind the allegations. Holder explained that some of the weekly reports reviewed by his staff did occasionally mention Fast and Furious, though none of the documents (which he provided to the committee) gave any indication of controversial tactics — or that these had gone wrong. Multiple officials from Justice and ATF testified they didn’t know about illegal guns flowing to Mexico, either.
Uh, did you miss that part where the Deputy Attorney of DOJ's Criminal Division Lanny Breuer acknowledged that he knew about guns walking to Mexico as early as April 2010? Did you find his testimony that he reprimanded the ATF agents involved in it (the same ones involved in Fast and Furious) and then it completely slipped his mind to even think of it again, even as news reports of Fast and Furious broke, credible?

How about DOJ sending Ronald Weich to testify that ATF had never walked guns to Mexico, and then later qualify that statement to say that ATF hadn't DIRECTLY walked guns to Mexico - a statement that even now needs to be qualified again given John Dodson's testimony (and recording and letters) showing that he sold weapons directly to the cartel at the behest of Dennis Burke?

Quote:
I asked the question; the agent agreed that our weak gun laws are, in fact, helping funnel weapons into Mexico.
The same agent (Peter Forcelli) repeatedly named Emory Hurley as declining to prosecute cases under Federal laws, which provides a penalty of up to 10 years in prison for the crime of straw purchasing. The same cases were later brought by the AZ Attorney General who successfully prosecuted under AZ's weaker state laws. Apparently the problem isn't the "weakness of the laws" but the unwillingness of the AUSA in Phoenix to pursue these cases.
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Old November 21, 2011, 06:24 PM   #1557
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This blather is further confirmation as to what the objective of F+F really was, and how weakly some in Congress think they can spin a story.

Disconnection from reality is no impediment at all for some to tell and others to buy a story that tells them what they want to believe.

I guess it's part ideology, part a lack of critical thinking skills. Maybe too there is some tribalism or groupthink, that grasps any straw to justify what "everyone (in my group) knows". A blogger observed today that it seems some MSM people are not reporting news but reassuring their niche audience that the world really is what they think it is.

This could be an explosive factor of civil destruction in the future.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:24 PM   #1558
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Hardcase:

Re your characterizatuion of Holder as a "poor manager", I submit that you are are, re that terminology, generous to a fault.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:36 PM   #1559
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Alan, I probably should have said "at best". I'm not really that generous I might have an open mind but it only opens so wide.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:39 PM   #1560
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HarrySchell writes:

This blather is further confirmation as to what the objective of F+F really was, and how weakly some in Congress think they can spin a story.

Disconnection from reality is no impediment at all for some to tell and others to buy a story that tells them what they want to believe.

I guess it's part ideology, part a lack of critical thinking skills. Maybe too there is some tribalism or groupthink, that grasps any straw to justify what "everyone (in my group) knows". A blogger observed today that it seems some MSM people are not reporting news but reassuring their niche audience that the world really is what they think it is.

This could be an explosive factor of civil destruction in the future.
------------------------

Well said sir, I don't think I could have done better myself. Seems that the Obama Administration is akin to a household implement, the corkscrew, in that like the corkscrew, there is nothing straight about Obama et al. Of course, corkscrews need to be shaped the way they are, in order to work. Can the same be said for administrations, I would hope not, but then who knows.
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Old November 21, 2011, 10:40 PM   #1561
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Hardcase:

Touche.
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Old November 22, 2011, 05:06 AM   #1562
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A note for anyone wishing to post a comment at the NYP link. The site truncates everything after the use of an ampersand. If you post "I believe that F and F is a bad program" you are fine. If you post "I believe that F&F is a bad program" is will post as "I believe that F".

I don't know why that is the way the site works.
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Old November 22, 2011, 09:34 AM   #1563
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News report traces the majority of sales of U.S. firearms to Mexican drug cartels to two major gun dealers in the United States: Department of State and Department of Defense.

Source: http://biggovernment.com/tstilson/20...g-cartel-guns/
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:04 AM   #1564
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The question comes to mind - what is the overall goal. On a functional and operational level I have every belief the Hope and Change crew is incompetent and is trying to make its own news to support it beliefs.

They want more and further gun control so they create murder, mayhem and chaos by operations such as Felonious Failure.

The state department would be more concerned with international agreements and relationships so the release of weapons to drug dealers might be to back one side or another. Overall it seems to be a insane policy though because no matter who you arm you can’t control how the weapons are used and the end result is instability not stability. (More Hope and Change incompetence)

The really odd part is any DOD involvement because they have a duty to follow the orders of the civilian chain of command and a duty to protect our nation and this seems to be a direct conflict. It seems to me on a surface level that any order given in this regard was highly likely unlawful and the whole chain of command all the way to the Commander in Chief would bear the consequences and the responsibility.

Still in the end (I don’t know enough about the Mexico situation to have an education opinion on its internal struggles) it seems the only reasonable outcome was murder on both sides of the border. I have said it before but if we weren’t a military super power Mexico would rightly be able to consider this the act of war that it is.

Our national government armed felons and drug dealers with weapons that it expected would be used against our citizenry and Mexico’s citizens. You can be right or left or whatever on the political scale but there’s no getting around that US Agents were murdered without committing crimes and without a trial and without a judgment and that is a crime against the Constitution because it was an act our government funded and was the only reasonable expectation that a reasonable person could have.

Also given the overall breath and apparent width of the operation the executive responsible for leadership of all these departments must be held responsible for the actions he had responsibility to know of and supervise. Our system has impeached itself even if our congress hasn’t.. this cannot stand...
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Old November 22, 2011, 11:46 AM   #1565
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Quote:
The case against the killers of Agent Terry, must contain some pertinent information. Cause it's been sealed.
If it was exculpatory it would be released.
Even stupid lying politicians know that.

Draw your own conclusion.
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Old November 22, 2011, 12:50 PM   #1566
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Alan writes:

Quote:
Seems that the Obama Administration is akin to a household implement, the corkscrew, in that like the corkscrew, there is nothing straight about Obama et al.
What an apt description! "Crooked as a dog's hind leg" just isn't near as effective an analogy.
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Old November 22, 2011, 02:30 PM   #1567
alan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
News report traces the majority of sales of U.S. firearms to Mexican drug cartels to two major gun dealers in the United States: Department of State and Department of Defense.

Source: http://biggovernment.com/tstilson/20...g-cartel-guns/
Just curious as to the following. Do either of the above mentioned, being that "they are in the business...", have the required FFL?
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Old November 22, 2011, 02:33 PM   #1568
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Harry:

Thanks for the kind words. I thought that my aphorism might catch someone's atteention.
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Old November 22, 2011, 04:03 PM   #1569
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Alan,
I had not seen it before.

It is perfect. A corkscrew is pointed and can hurt people, and never has a hope of getting straight. Any dog can get a hind leg straighter if they want to, but a corkscrew...it can't change even if it wants to. It has few alternative uses, also! Use it too much and you end up incapacitated, ill and messy all over yourself...

Hilarious and descriptive.

Harry
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Old November 22, 2011, 05:54 PM   #1570
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Quote:
Just curious as to the following. Do either of the above mentioned, being that "they are in the business...", have the required FFL?
The FMSO (Foreign Military Sales Office) does not require an FFL as it is not allowed to sell weapons in the US.

The weapons that are mostly talking about were sold/ transferred to Mexican Government agencies and then stolen and given to the Drug Gangs.
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Old November 23, 2011, 11:07 AM   #1571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep. Carolyn Maloney
But this initiative, which was identical to one launched under the Bush administration,
You can tell she is lying, her lips are moving.
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Old November 23, 2011, 06:45 PM   #1572
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Quote:
News report traces the majority of sales of U.S. firearms to Mexican drug cartels to two major gun dealers in the United States: Department of State and Department of Defense.

Source: http://biggovernment.com/tstilson/20...g-cartel-guns/
Respectfully, this "news report" is mostly speculation. I'm not saying it's not true.
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Old November 23, 2011, 08:42 PM   #1573
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Watch the skirting into pure politics. Always a risk. Stay with the facts and avoid just ranting. Even if the rant might be valid. Otherwise we end up ranting about the faults of all politicians.

Thank you. Eat turkey and relax.
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Old November 23, 2011, 09:53 PM   #1574
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No turkey. Having Thanksgiving tacos.
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Old November 24, 2011, 04:11 AM   #1575
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I once heard it said "He's as crooked as a snake in a hurry."
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