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Old November 11, 2011, 01:25 AM   #1526
zxcvbob
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Quote:
Can the president pardon himself?
Perhaps. That's why the impeachment process removes him from office first. It's not a criminal proceeding. (that can come later)
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Old November 11, 2011, 06:26 AM   #1527
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A repeat from my earlier post, since some seem to have missed it:

Quote:
Holder also admitted to Leahy that Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley handed him letters in person in late January, months before Holder previously claimed he knew of the controversial initiative of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE).
If you go waaay back in this thread, you can read Grassley's letters. They are the kind of letters that would get your attention, especially if handed to you in person by a Senator.

Senator Grassley brought this program to Holder's attention PERSONALLY in January.

January is more than "a few weeks" from May. During that time period, discussion of this issue advanced quite a bit here on TFL, but apparently, Holder learned nothing about the program. Did not even pick up the name Fast and Furious.

Incompetent or lying. Those are the choices. I guess lying.
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Old November 11, 2011, 06:56 AM   #1528
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Incompetent or lying. Those are the choices. I guess lying.
I guess both, but the degrees of each vary, depending on the specific....making it harder to assign a motive. It's a sliding scale.
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Old November 11, 2011, 01:06 PM   #1529
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AG Holder "apologized" in a "private" letter to Agent Terry's parents that has apparently made it to Politico before the Terrys.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/68052.html

The letter is linked in the above story. Essentially, Holder said that he's sorry that Terry died. I'm sure that you all will understand the nuance of his apology. It is a well-crafted letter, indeed.
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Old November 11, 2011, 01:33 PM   #1530
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Interesting letter indeed. Of course, the timing stinks, but let's look beyond that:

Quote:
“I am sorry for the tragic loss of your son, U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. Brian was a hero who served his nation bravely and made the ultimate sacrifice,” writes Holder in a letter dated Wednesday. “I agree with you that the tactic of allowing guns to ‘walk,’ as was permitted in Operation Fast and Furious, is completely unacceptable.”
I'm sorry. I think it is a terrible thing that Agent Terry was murdered by criminals who should never have gotten across our border, and that the weapons used were available due to our BATFE engaging in illegal activities. But ... what, exactly, did Brian Terry do that makes him a "hero"?

Nothing.


Quote:
Holder said that he was willing to meet with the Terry family to answer their questions about what happened.

“I would welcome the opportunity to meet with you in person to discuss our shared concerns. I give you my word that we will do everything in our power to bring those responsible for Brian’ s death to justice,” wrote Holder.
Translation: We'll keep pursuing the Mexican gunmen as long as it provides a suitable smokescreen for our people, who provided the weapons.
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Old November 14, 2011, 09:12 PM   #1531
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Justice Department has refused to make available 11 of 12 department witnesses called
Is anybody surprised? I'm not. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...postcount=1345
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Old November 14, 2011, 10:01 PM   #1532
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^ Right,

It's no surprise, we were just sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I think when these sorts of things happen though, it adds weight to the argument that a special prosecutor is needed.

Another interesting thing in the article is that Ronald Weich is going to be coming back to explain to the commitee why he stated in February that guns had not been walked into Mexico as part of Fast and Furious.
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Old November 14, 2011, 10:51 PM   #1533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C0untZer0
Another interesting thing in the article is that Ronald Weich is going to be coming back to explain to the commitee why he stated in February that guns had not been walked into Mexico as part of Fast and Furious.
Bah. We're dealing with political animals -- who are cornered. They'll play every word for whatever nuance they can squeeze out of it. Remember, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is"?

So he testified that no guns had been walked. He'll probably come back and "clarify" that by that statement he meant that no BATFE agents had personally carried or escorted any firearms across the border.

"It depends on what the meaning of 'walked' is."
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Old November 14, 2011, 10:57 PM   #1534
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On one of the Fox Sunday News programs a guest made the following statements concerning Holder's testimony before congress.

When an attorney has the facts on his side he argues the facts. When he has the law on his side he argues the law. When he has neither the facts or the law he pounds the table. Holder is pounding the table.

This thing is rapidly coming to the tipping point. I just hope it does not topple at the AG's Office but at the highest level. I hope that it takes out all of the players in all departments.

The scoundrells at State. Justice. Homeland Security and the White House all need to go down.
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Old November 15, 2011, 12:31 AM   #1535
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ltc444 wrote:
On one of the Fox Sunday News programs a guest made the following statements concerning Holder's testimony before congress.

When an attorney has the facts on his side he argues the facts. When he has the law on his side he argues the law. When he has neither the facts or the law he pounds the table. Holder is pounding the table.

This thing is rapidly coming to the tipping point. I just hope it does not topple at the AG's Office but at the highest level. I hope that it takes out all of the players in all departments.

The scoundrells at State. Justice. Homeland Security and the White House all need to go down.
----------------------------------

Likely, the responsible parties will be promoted. The elevator operators or similar persons will be sacrificed.

C0untZer0 provided the following link:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ing-witnesses/
----------------------

Just my take, but from the way things have been going or should I say not going, I would expect there would have been contempt citations by now. Have there been any such?
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Old November 15, 2011, 02:22 PM   #1536
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And now a former staffer of Holder, Kevin Ohlson, is in trouble for (apparently) not reading his memos also.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...t-and-furious/

Just like his boss.

The incompetence is astounding.
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Old November 15, 2011, 03:20 PM   #1537
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Old November 15, 2011, 06:18 PM   #1538
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Interesting article at Hot Air saying that the DOJ withheld information from Sen. Grassley on Wide Receiver while at the same time leaking selected documents to the case to help with PR prior to the recent Senate testimony.

I'm sure we are all duly shocked at this point that DOJ would be less than forthcoming... I mean its not like they told us a little over a year ago that ATF had never walked guns period.
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Old November 15, 2011, 06:46 PM   #1539
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I do believe that the murder of American Agents and citizens with guns bought and paid for with tax payer money and purposely released to arm drug dealers with zero chance of preventing any crime equals a "High Crime" as mentioned in the that pesky Constitution.

I understand that in some nations arming people to kill your own citizens and government agents could be considered something akin to treason... Arming an attack on the citizens of this nation is a serious crime.

I am not a lawyer and never played one on tv. But it does seem to me that however high this intentional act goes, all the players that approved it need to be prosecuted with zero pleading down the crimes..
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Old November 16, 2011, 12:44 AM   #1540
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BGutzman: Astonishing eloquence, very simply stated. You are my hero.
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Old November 16, 2011, 01:26 PM   #1541
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The case against the killers of Agent Terry, must contain some pertinent information. Cause it's been sealed.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...cc4c002e0.html
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Old November 16, 2011, 01:48 PM   #1542
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Don't you just love all the transparency this administration has created in the workings of our government?
I feel for the Family, friends and coworkers of Agent Terry. The wall of silence has got to be torture.
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Old November 16, 2011, 02:03 PM   #1543
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I wonder if all the twenty-somethings that believed the HOPE™ and CHANGE™ nonsense and the promises of "transparency" are paying any attention at all.

I doubt it.
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Old November 16, 2011, 03:49 PM   #1544
alan
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zxcvbob wrote:

I wonder if all the twenty-somethings that believed the HOPE™ and CHANGE™ nonsense and the promises of "transparency" are paying any attention at all.

I doubt it.

Re those twenty-somethings, they might or might not be paying attention, who knows. That having been said, on the subject of change, as in change you can believe in, as it was put, P.O. Ackley once upon a time offered the following on the subject of change. He said that while change might indicate movement, it isn't necessairly movement in the direction of improvement.

BGutzman wrote:

I do believe that the murder of American Agents and citizens with guns bought and paid for with tax payer money and purposely released to arm drug dealers with zero chance of preventing any crime equals a "High Crime" as mentioned in the that pesky Constitution.

I understand that in some nations arming people to kill your own citizens and government agents could be considered something akin to treason... Arming an attack on the citizens of this nation is a serious crime.

I am not a lawyer and never played one on tv. But it does seem to me that however high this intentional act goes all the players that approved it need to be prosecuted with zero pleading down the crimes..

Re his last, that is the way things should work. That having been said, being the evil minded old man that Iam, that is most likely not the way things will work out, sad that it might be.
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Old November 16, 2011, 04:44 PM   #1545
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Some of us 20 somethings pay attention.
(This one didn't buy the idea that change automatically equals improvement.)

I am wondering if the Congressmen investigating have more cards than they are showing. I certainly hope so! Otherwise, this will only be one of those scandals almost big enough to make meaningful and beneficial changes.
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Old November 17, 2011, 09:45 AM   #1546
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Sipsey Street Irregulars has an email from Glen Cook to the AUSA in El Paso that may prove revealing. Apparently, agents in El Paso caught some bad guys with a bunch of Fast and Furious guns. They attempted to prosecute these guys but the Phoenix ATF office declined to be helpful with that; eventually forcing the El Paso agents to subpoena Bill Voth and Hope McAlister.

The December 17, 2010 email is significant for two reasons:

1, Glen Cook (who depending on whether it was Glenn Cook or Glen Cook is either an AUSA or an ATF agent) writes about the missing 2,000 guns from Fast & Furious in the email and sarcastically suggests Phoenix get a really good PR team.

2. A conflict of this type between El Paso and Phoenix would get kicked up to higher levels in the Justice Department, as this email was forwarded - so Lanny Breuer is going to have an interesting time explaining how he was aware of this conflict but managed to miss a comment about 2,000 guns going missing in December 2010. Of course, that presumes that Breuer will testify and so far DOJ is not accomodating that...

I can't imagine why DOJ is stalling on this. It is only going to get worse as the campaign season rolls around. Maybe they are hoping to paint it as a partisan attack?
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Old November 17, 2011, 12:05 PM   #1547
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^^^Reflexive denial, I suspect.

Potentially, Obama's whole life is fakery and constructed. Reality is to be avoided at all cost, and the "narrative" presented or nothing said. Someone that deep into a fairy tale has a hard time doing anything but deny or suppress anything they didn't think of or find challenging.

Too, these worthies "know" what the rest of us "need", and have arrived at their station to lead us to a "better future". We are too stupid and uncredentialled to know their genius. Things that conflict with this vision of superiority are to be ignored, denied, suppressed or attacked.

Then again, if we really did know the facts, someone would be headed for jail, careers ruined, "rice bowls" and empires shattered, stupidity, venality and (I think) outright treason exposed. Things are probably worse than what we can imagine. Some players are probably and rightly scared witless. Who knows what they might say under oath, that will waterfall onto others?

Denial and obstruction are all that's left.
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Old November 17, 2011, 09:43 PM   #1548
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Fox news had three stories on F&F today, one printred and two in video.

VIDEO LINK "New Questions Raised After Testimony on Gun Sting"

VIDEO LINK "More Fast and Furious Guns Found"

PRINT ARTICLE "Obama Court Pick Grilled at Senate Hearing Over Knowledge of Operation Fast and Furious"
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Old November 17, 2011, 10:56 PM   #1549
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Bartholomew Roberts ended a post with the following:

I can't imagine why DOJ is stalling on this. It is only going to get worse as the campaign season rolls around. Maybe they are hoping to paint it as a partisan attack?

Bartholomew:

Re your imagination problem, please consider the following aspects.

1. Who appoints the AG?
2. As whose pleasure does that worthy serve.
3. Ditto for the Director of BATFE.

I believe it is otherwise known as CYA, Cover Your Ass, in less politic parlance. Might it be said that The Plot Thickens or is it becoming more transparent?
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Old November 21, 2011, 04:15 PM   #1550
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It's hard to know where to start...

Fast and Furious 'scandal' is a Republican red herring: What we really need are tougher gun laws
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