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Old April 20, 2011, 03:46 PM   #126
tyme
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They might also be trying to determine the outer limits of what they can get away with shredding, what's better to have "lost" than to let Congress read.
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Old April 20, 2011, 03:50 PM   #127
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They might also be trying to determine the outer limits of what they can get away with shredding
That's what I don't like about all of these delays. I can almost hear the sounds of shredders and hard drives being erased at ATF and DOJ while they stall for time.

I really hope they can get to the bottom of this before all the evidence "disappears".
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Old April 20, 2011, 04:33 PM   #128
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Well, part of the problem with destroying evidence is that there are now some 12-15 whistleblowers, including some key personnel. Based on what Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley have already shared, we know that they already have a decent set of documentation.

I believe Rep. Issa has even shown them a few documents just to emphasize that point. If anyone in DoJ starts destroying evidence to obstruct an official investigation, they better be really, really good at guessing which ones Issa and Grassley have and which ones they don't; because if they guess wrong once or twice, that is going to lead to even more awkward questions on top of the ones already being asked. And Rep. Issa has also asked for logs of the documents being refused by the DoJ, which, if the DoJ actually produces said logs, will make it difficult to disappear them at some later date.

I suppose the President could assert executive privilege over the requested documents and that would give DoJ some cover; but it might end up bringing even more media attention to an issue that I don't think President Obama wants linked to him.
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Old April 20, 2011, 04:38 PM   #129
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Old April 20, 2011, 05:29 PM   #130
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Looks like Rep Cummins is claiming that the Issa subpoena would force the DOJ to release documents that would compromise three criminal investigations.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/20/cu...nvestigations/

Not sure I buy it.
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Old April 20, 2011, 09:00 PM   #131
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Rep. Cummins is speaking nonsense. DoJ could have withheld the documents and released a log of the documents withheld instead; but they did neither. Not to mention that the DoJ has to explain how letting Re. Issa's staff see the documents would jeopardize an investigation.
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Old April 20, 2011, 09:17 PM   #132
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Could Issa simply issue a warrant for Melson's detention or at least warn him that the next step would be just that event? Perhaps having that notification hand delivered by the House Sargent At Arms would get their attention.
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Old April 20, 2011, 09:55 PM   #133
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We should also understand, that ongoing investigation(s) or not, various congressional committees are authorized to oversee an agency and will keep what it sees confidential, as it respects any investigation.

In other words, Rep. Cummins is shilling for the administration. Just as Rep. Quigly did at the beginning of Issa's requests, so did Cummins when Issa issued the subpoenas.

Jimpeel, Issa said today (04/20) that if Melson does not comply, a Contempt of Congress Proceedings will be initiated. Here's the letter to Melson. Google contempt of congress.
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Old April 21, 2011, 02:49 PM   #134
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Al has it exactly right. Rep. Cummings is a shill for AG Holder and the White House, and will do anything within his power to carry their water for them. But it matters little, since he does not chair the committee and has no power to stop anything.
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Old April 21, 2011, 02:54 PM   #135
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It is not difficult to see how continued intransigence on the part of the White House (and if you think the White House isn't pulling the strings, well...I've got a bridge to sell ya) could produce impeachment hearings. Also, remember that electronic information is NOT stored merely in email files and on hard drives. Hard copies are made, but also transaction logs are stored and backed up on servers. With enough technical resources, these logs can be read and their contents discerned.

I would not want to be one of the lackeys destroying hard drives and shredding docs at the boss's behest knowing that I might be putting my own butt in a sling concealing evidence that is readily discoverable by other means.
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:15 PM   #136
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Leave us not to forget the little known hard drives on the printers themselves. Just another way to get caught with goods.
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Old April 22, 2011, 04:55 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
And in yet another example of waving a flag in front of the bull, the Department of Justice apparently released limited materials from those requested to Rep. Issa; but when Sen. Grassley's staff sought access to the same materials they were not allowed entry. I don't know what Keystone Kop thought that this was a good approach to take with a U.S. Senator; but I sure hope he keeps doing it.
I think we have identified The Fountainhead.

"I know! We'll feed Issa a little manure, and Grassley nothing at all! That'll stop 'em!"

I doubt it will work, and with the sheer number of whistleblowers and people (and their computers) in the loop on this one, any attempt to destroy the evidence will be futile. The pathetic delay tactics do make one wonder what it is they do not want to release.
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Old April 22, 2011, 05:19 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by publius42
The pathetic delay tactics do make one wonder what it is they do not want to release.
The truth?
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Old April 25, 2011, 07:20 AM   #139
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Carter Country in Houston was under investigation by a grand jury for illegal firearm sales. This was in December 2010. Dick DeGuerin the firm's attorney then dropped the bomb that they were ordered by the ATF to continue the sales starting in 2006. Seems that once this odious element hit the legal punch bowl the investigation was dropped.

It seems that most dealers did the right thing when approached on these type of sales but were told to continue with them by the ATF.

Of course when the ATF was approached with this information they said no comment. The only comments have been by ATF agents doing the right thing by blowing the whistle on this. They even reported these facts to the DOJ Inspector General. Which makes it highly unlikely that DOJ headman Holder knew nothing.

It seems some media articles on the guns in Mexico act like this never happened and keep on telling non fact.

What can we expect from this administration that accepted an award for transparency in secret? These guys are stealth anti-gun because they have numerous other political battles to fight and want to tiptoe around gun rights political battles as they just got whopped up side the head in the 2010 elections.

I don't expect this thing to make it to the light of day. If this stuff did it would give the GOP Congress the neutering shears it needs if it wanted to use them. Most of the anti gunners if you read some articles are crying about the weakened ATF. Which is why I am not holding my breath for this administration to open any investigations and to ignore Congress as long as possible hoping that the current budget battles in DC over shadow this stuff.
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Old April 27, 2011, 09:19 AM   #140
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New report yesteray from Sharyl Atkisson of CBS News.

While waiting for ATF to respond to the latest demand, it seems Congressional staffs have descended on Arizona and are conducting their own investigation. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Assistant Special Agent in charge of Phoenix ATF, George Gillett has obtained an attorney and is voluntarily cooperating with the investigation.

In other news, Atkisson names the AUSA involved in Fast and Furious as Emory Hurley. Apparently Emory Hurley's boss is Dennis Burke. Dennis Burke in turn, was chief of staff to (then) Gov. Janet Napolitano, who is now Secretary of Homeland Security. To top this off, there was an apparently a Homeland Security agent assigned to the Fast and Furious task force; but Napolitano denied knowing anything about Fast and Furious.

Lanny Breuer at DoJ has also been named as someone who knew about Fast and Furious; but apparently DoJ will not release records relating to his trip to Mexico to the Congressman.

So far both Holder and Napolitano have claimed no knowledge of Fast and Furious; but given some of the people who were involved in it and the level of authority such a project would require, I'm feeling a bit skeptical.
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Old April 27, 2011, 10:08 PM   #141
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An article from the New American: http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...ontempt-charge

From Dave Workman (Seattle Gun Rights Examiner) who opines about the CBS report on Congressional feet in AZ: http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...gators-arizona

Then there is an April 20th editorial by Laura Carlsen (Foreign Policy in Focus) which was just on Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-..._b_853788.html The responses there are interesting (even yours, Tom ).
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Old April 28, 2011, 06:52 AM   #142
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Can anyone tell me the status of the long gun reporting act that was being discussed a few months ago with regard to the southern border states?
The required reporting of rifle sales over 22lr caliber to any individual within a certian time frame?

Off topic maybe, but it seems related. Was it enacted or did it die?

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-31761.pdf
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Old April 28, 2011, 10:25 AM   #143
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May 1 is the deadline to take comments on the proposed change in rules.

It is after this that we will see what happens (and I believe the "fix" is already in). See this thread for links and to send your own responses in.
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Old April 28, 2011, 11:57 AM   #144
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The responses there are interesting (even yours, Tom).
Actually, that's somebody else.

Still, it's good to know folks on the other side of the fence are questioning this as well. Perhaps some inquiries from their end can help get the ball rolling.
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Old April 28, 2011, 12:15 PM   #145
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Hmmmm .... Can the world handle 2 Tom Servo's?????
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Old April 28, 2011, 12:40 PM   #146
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That Laura Carlsen piece (which is a very decent overview) has been picked up by several news and blog sites on the "left" side of the spectrum, in addition to HuffPo -- Counterpunch and Common Dreams, just to name a couple. So this story is getting out; and it certainly should be of interest to a lot of people, regardless of their political identification.
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Old April 28, 2011, 01:04 PM   #147
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Can the world handle 2 Tom Servo's?????
It appears I may have an arch-nemesis.

...and that's just cool
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Old April 28, 2011, 02:13 PM   #148
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Gotta love MSNBC, they haven't posted a PEEP about Project Gunrunner yet, but today on their front page is a story about how 200 people on the terror watch list were allowed to buy guns.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42801680...news-security/

Makes you sick doesn't it?
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Old April 28, 2011, 02:30 PM   #149
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There is a story on Fox News WEB site which references various government documents to make the case that most of the weapons used by Mexican Cartels come from various U.S. Government sources. They point to weapons sold to the Mexican government, stock piles in Central America and sales to Latin American governments. I thought it was an interesting read.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/28...xican-cartels/
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Old April 29, 2011, 05:17 AM   #150
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MSNBC did discuss Project Gunrunner last year, but have lost interest in the story for some reason.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39345370/

Headline: ATF TARGETS GUN DEALERS...

And it talks about going after "corrupt dealers" as "high value targets" and taking on narco cartel leaders, not just straw buyers.

Actual quote from the story involving the only dealer discussed:

Quote:
The Mexican national, his father and his brother have all been charged with illegal weapons purchases in the case. No charges have been filed against the firearms dealer and he is not accused of any wrongdoing.
Another set of straw buyers charged, no cartel leaders discussed at all, and no "corrupt dealer" anywhere in sight.

With accuracy like that, it is probably just as well that MSNBC not cover the investigation any further.
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