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Old October 10, 2011, 05:19 PM   #1301
Tom Servo
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Nothing, if no one cares. That seems to be the situation.
I'm not so sure. The whole Fast & Furious thing is getting some traction in the media, albeit not as much as I'd like.

However, the Attorney General flaunting the will of Congress? That's drama, and that tends to lead well on the evening news.
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Old October 10, 2011, 07:24 PM   #1302
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Know what spelled Nixon's undoing? He still had a wee bit of shame and integrity in him and he nominated an AG who he knew would appoint a special prosecutor.
No. There were some Republicans willing to do what was right. Nixon was told (supposedly Gen. Al Haig was the messenger) that the jig was up and he was going to be convicted following impeachment.
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Old October 10, 2011, 08:04 PM   #1303
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Mr. Holder is as usual using the "blame everyone else" defence.
He is ah, ah, well, here is his latest blaming the GOP and defereing any wrong doing

http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/H...mo_code=D38C-1
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Old October 10, 2011, 09:54 PM   #1304
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Mr. Holder is sticking to the party's talking points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holder
Even in the face of an unprecedented flow of guns across the border, too many in Congress still oppose every effort to reform our gun laws in ways that would make the United States and our Mexican neighbors safer.
I wonder how many guns this "unprecedented flow" really amounts to after you subtract the ones provided through the BATFE's various gun-walking programs. You have to wonder if a supposedly intelligent man really thinks people are going to believe this drivel ... but then you watch some of the man-on-the-street interviews on any evening newscast, and you realize that, yes, they WILL believe him.
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Old October 11, 2011, 12:14 AM   #1305
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Holder is a piece of work...

All the clichés. He gives new meaning to the terms hubris, audacity and unmitigated gall.

I was thinking that we’d have a hard time getting to the truth of the real motive behind F&F. I thought that after being discovered in this misdeed the administration would retreat, attempt to cover it up and abandon the failed idea of trying to sneak guns into the hands of Mexican drug gangs to sway public opinion that tougher gun laws were needed.

Holder has some nerve! Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead and call for stricter gun laws anyway!

While we don’t yet have the smoking gun that proves the goal of F&F was to manipulate public opinion in order to build support for stricter gun laws, Holder’s statements now make it clear for anyone who can connect the dots. Will the tactic fool some people – yes.
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Old October 11, 2011, 01:55 AM   #1306
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Issa has now shot back at Holder and it ain't pretty. The text of Issa's letter can be read HERE.

In the meantime, back at the ranch, the "Bush did it too" crowd is just getting heated up. They believe that Wide Receiver is as bad as F&F but Wide Receiver was recognized as the failure it was and retired. The current administration -- in their belief that all things that don't work are because they were not in charge at the time -- has pressed on with a program that makes Wide Receiver look like a successful program.
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Old October 11, 2011, 06:11 AM   #1307
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What an intense read that was. The gloves have most definitely come off.
This should get very interesting much quicker than I thought it would.
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Old October 11, 2011, 07:15 AM   #1308
publius42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
The whole Fast & Furious thing is getting some traction in the media, albeit not as much as I'd like.

However, the Attorney General flaunting the will of Congress? That's drama, and that tends to lead well on the evening news.
Eventually, perhaps, but it has been going on for quite some time. A post back in July by BR comes to mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Whatever else you can say about DOJ, they aren't trying to tread lightly on this. At the rate they are going, I'm surprised Holder hadn't dropped his pants and relieved himself on the Judiciary committee just to make his point more clearly.
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Old October 11, 2011, 07:24 AM   #1309
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More readable version of the letter here.
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Old October 11, 2011, 09:42 AM   #1310
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CBS Sharyl Attkisson report today... subpoenas for AG en route. Today?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...ml?tag=nl.e875

Story seems to have "legs" and just won't die
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Old October 11, 2011, 10:09 AM   #1311
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definitely, it's Bush's fault he did it first..,
Quote:
...another scheme called Project Gunrunner, which was started under the Bush administration, Holder claimed.
Quote:
“To be sure, during 2010 I knew generally that ATF was conducting gun trafficking operations along the Southwest Border and elsewhere in the country since that is a core part of its mission given the large number of firearms flowing to Mexico each year from the United States,” he wrote.

He said he knew of some of those schemes, but not Fast and Furious.
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Old October 11, 2011, 10:11 AM   #1312
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I woke up this morning and immediately felt anger over Holder's statements

what a two-faceed hypocrite! To denounce Rep. Paul Gosar:

Quote:
“Such irresponsible and inflammatory rhetoric must be repudiated in the strongest possible terms,” said Holder. “Those who serve in the ranks of law enforcement are our Nation’s heroes and deserve our Nation’s thanks, not the disrespect that is being heaped on them by those who seek political advantage. "
Holder was not thinking of the anyone in the ranks of law enforcement when F&F was going on... the BATFE agents working it were having trouble sleeping at night - living in fear that one of these weapons would eventually be used to kill a U.S. agent. The BATFE agents were sounding the alarm that exactly that scenario would happen if they were continually prevented from interdicting these weapons. Holder wasn't thinking of the nation's law enforcement officers, he was only thinking of the operation as a way to pump up statistics and add credibility to an effort to enact stricter gun control.

Also, Gosar didn't aim his comments at the BATFE field agents working the operation or any other law enforcement officers - his comments are aimed at the high level government politicos who conceived of it, so Holder's comments are not applicable. His comments are just a diversion, a red herring. But they are so two-faced that I find it infuriating.
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Old October 11, 2011, 10:18 AM   #1313
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My two favorite parts of Issa's letter:

Quote:
The facts simply do not support any claim that Fast and Furious did not reach the highest levels of the Justice Department. Actually, Fast and Furious did reach the ultimate authority in the Department – you.
Quote:
Operation Fast and Furious was the Department's most significant gun trafficking case. It related to two of your major initiatives – destroying the Mexican cartels and reducing gun violence on both sides of the border. On your watch, it went spectacularly wrong. Whether you realize yet or not, you own Fast and Furious. It is your responsibility.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
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Old October 11, 2011, 10:55 AM   #1314
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So much misdirection.

It still hasn't come to light who thought this operation up. If BATFE confiscates so much as a .38 spl from some low-level mafioso and it results in him doing prison time- you better beleive that everyone knows who deserves credit for thinking the operation up, but this thing that is so gigantically huge that it entailed the movement of thousands of weapons - no one's quite sure who originally came up with the idea... hmmmm

No one is sure who authorized it ... hmmm

Holder's memo war with Issa is just misdirection. While Holder is taking all the heat right now, people are no longer thinking about how far it reached into the White House. Not that it will last, I don't think there is anything Holder can do now that would stop the investigation from proceeding to the next higher level.

And hopefully somewhere in this process someone will be able to uncover that an administration used an entire agency of the federal government against the American people, and that something will be done about it to ensure that this government cannot, in the future, commit crimes against it's own citizens.
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Old October 11, 2011, 11:11 AM   #1315
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Quote:
They believe that Wide Receiver is as bad as F&F but Wide Receiver was recognized as the failure it was and retired.
If they want to make Wide Receiver an issue (and it should be), that's fine. However, it doesn't in any way excuse Fast & Furious.

If anything, it makes it worse, since they were already aware of the dangers inherent in the approach. Fast & Furious is Holder's problem, through and through.
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Old October 11, 2011, 11:15 AM   #1316
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The biggest problem with comparing WR to F&F is that WR tried to place constraints on the firearms such as visual and electronic surveillance. When those measures failed, due to crafty smuggling tactics, the program was terminated.

Seeing this failure, the ATF decided that it would be a better tactic to simply let the firearms walk with no surveillance techniques in place at all. What a great idea that has turned out to be.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old October 11, 2011, 01:05 PM   #1317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holder
Even in the face of an unprecedented flow of guns across the border, too many in Congress still oppose every effort to reform our gun laws in ways that would make the United States and our Mexican neighbors safer.
Seems to me this is an admission of the real goal Holder sought. Why would he even bring it up if the goal were to find and arrest capos and enforcers with F+F guns?

Too clever, again, by half...like his boss and "under the radar".
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Old October 11, 2011, 01:35 PM   #1318
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When the wash is finally hung out to dry, I think you will find Mr. Holder will have higher company on that line. Anyone remember Watergate?
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Old October 11, 2011, 02:18 PM   #1319
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I remember Watergate, all my favorite TV shows were preempted while these guys just droned on and on and on...
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Old October 11, 2011, 04:34 PM   #1320
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The spin is in, they put Holder in to break the terror plot story today, trying to make the uninformed look at him as a hero!
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Old October 11, 2011, 05:12 PM   #1321
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And it looks like the spin worked to deflect attention. The FoxNews story on Fast and Furious subpoenas is relegated to the Politics page while the Iranian assassination plot is front page news.
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Old October 11, 2011, 05:47 PM   #1322
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I found Issa's letter astounding. The gloves are off, he's not gonna stand for any more spin or BS. He's going for the throat, no doubt about it, and blood will soak the floors of the DOJ.

Let's not be too impatient about this. It's a long way to November 2012, and there are lots of cutouts between DOJ and the Oval Office. Develop this case slowly, carefully, and work it up to the top, and there's little doubt that it could well put the final nails into the coffin of the Obama presidency. But it takes time to get the details right, time to grind down the guys who might be persuaded to "take one for the Team", and time to get this to the peak some time in late October 2012, where it will do the most good.

I was surprised at the level of ignorance surrounding this in the attention of the general public, but I see it as a good thing. Having this peak too soon will give the O Team too much time to downplay it, spin it away, or come up with some kind of useful crisis to divert peoples' attention.

But to my mind, this is a lot more damaging than some DNA on a dress. Dalliance between consenting adults is not a crime, despite what a Republican congress would like to think. But aiding and abetting an operation that took American LEO lives, as well as a concerted campaign of lies which will ultimately be shown to be an attempt at back-door gun control by media spin, and which will eventually be walked back to the White House, is a much bigger deal.

Did the President know and approve of this? We don't know, yet. But Issa will find out. He's no fool, and he knows how much damage this can do, and just how to ensure that that damage is done, at the most effective time.

At least, that's my very fond hope.

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Old October 11, 2011, 06:07 PM   #1323
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Quote:
Did the President know and approve of this?
If he didn't, he should have come forward when this became public and issued reprisals.

If he did, he should have come forward when this became public and issued reprisals.

If I were President (and therefore, a politician), I'd have thrown Melson and Voth to the wolves. Anyone else involved would have been given incentive to keep quiet. I'd have instructed Holder to do the same thing. I'd have made a prime-time speech about the horrors of a "rogue element" running off the reservation in Phoenix, and I'd have used it as an example of how I'm "stamping out corruption" or somesuch.

He did none of these things. He waited for it to get swept under the rug, and at this point, whether or not he knew at the time is irrelevant. The lack of action is.
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Old October 11, 2011, 07:50 PM   #1324
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With Issa finally working up to an actual subpoena/placing Holder under oath, and CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson alluding to more damaging evidence from the same recent disclosures as the supposed "F&F weekly briefings", any odds on Issa holding some crucial hole card to either elicit or prove perjury?
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Old October 11, 2011, 08:22 PM   #1325
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The sad thing is that most likely no-one will be punished, some will probably get promoted or moved to other positions. Our government has become something that lives on deceit of the American people. We can't handle the truth! So sad!
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