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Old October 7, 2011, 10:38 PM   #1276
gc70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim
That's exactly what Holder is claiming in a letter today to Congress.
Holder probably has a winning claim. Things like the real rationale for Operation Fast & Furious are communicated verbally and not committed to writing. Unless someone was incredibly stupid, there is no "smoking gun" written record of OF&F that explicitly involves Holder. The people who could talk definitively about Holder's role in OF&F will not do so as long as they believe they will be protected. At worst, someone several layers down from the top will step forward and take the blame to put an end to the issue.
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Old October 8, 2011, 05:31 AM   #1277
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Bob Owens of Pajamas Media explains the sleight-of-hand trick being played here. I'd link to it; but the link kept crashing Safari.

Basically, the big difference between Wide Receiver and Fast & Furious is that the guns in Wide Receiver contained RFID tracking devices and law enforcement was attempting to interdict the guns. Guns walked because the smugglers knew the tail numbers of government aircraft and would wait for them to refuel before crossing. In addition, the RFID devices proved to have both a shorter than expected range and less than expected battery life. Once they realized ~ 200 guns had walked, they stopped the investigation.

According to the same FFL who told about Wide Receiver, the ATF, ASAC, and SAC in Phoenix lied to the AUSA about these problems and told the AUSA the weapons were being tracked. When the AUSA discovered the lies, he refused to bring charges as he felt the case was now crippled by the Phoenix ATFs untruthfulness. Accordingly, there were no charges in the investigation until the new AUSA decided to round up the straw purchasers.
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Old October 8, 2011, 08:44 AM   #1278
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I think Issa and Grassley should investigate operation Wide Receiver whole heartedly.

If anyone in the Obama administration thinks that WR helps them in some way or deflects criticism - they are wrong.

Get it all out in the open I say - eventually operation Wide Receiver will only serve to make F&F look even MORE egregious!

This is a program that was cancelled because it failed! And who decided to repeat that??? If it was George Bush and his people who thought up Wide Receiver - shame on them, but who’s dumber – more importantly – who is more culpable – the people who thought it up the first time or the people who resurrected an operation that was a proven failure in the past.

I’d love to hear the questions

“Given that Operation Wide Receiver was an admitted failure and was shut down, and produced no high-level indictments – why would anyone attempt a similar operation such as Fast and Furious?”

“If drug cartel members were able to defeat interdiction efforts in Operation Wide Receiver because the RFID devices proved to have both inadequate range and less than expected battery life – how was Operation Fast and Furious going to correct that operation shortcoming by not placing tracking devices in the weapons at all?”

“How was Operation Fast and Furious going to achieve it’s stated operational goals if there were no tracking devices in the weapons?”

The fact that Operation Wide Receiver went before F&F makes the position of everyone involved with F&F that much more difficult.
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Old October 8, 2011, 09:53 AM   #1279
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I've read the letter, and do not even know where to begin. How about here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Holder
[referring to the various reports that show up addressed to him, but read by others:] . . . . It is important to look at the documents supposedly at issue here, and, for that reason, I have attached them to this letter and am making them public in the form they were previously provided by us to Congress. Please note that none of these summaries say anything about the unacceptable tactics employed by ATF.
Reeaaaallly?!? THAT'S where he wants to go?

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Old October 8, 2011, 11:22 AM   #1280
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Quote:
“Given that Operation Wide Receiver was an admitted failure and was shut down, and produced no high-level indictments – why would anyone attempt a similar operation such as Fast and Furious?”
A consistent pattern of the Obama administration is to pursue failed ideas, from crony capitalism, Keynesian economics, appeasement of enemies, marxist principles of healthcare delivery, etc. This is just another example with the twist that a LOT of violence and chaos invariably produces some outcry for more law and enforcement.

The stated goal in F+F, as more evidence is disclosed, has gone from "a stretch" to "botched" to complete fantasy way past incompetence or simple error. It simply cannot be why the op was undertaken, nobody involved is that incompetent.

Nine programs in five states, it appears now, arming cartel and domestic gangs? Nobody is so incompetent or reckless to have undertaken this in error or "botched" the op. This is purposeful criminal activity, most likely to set off a cry for a new AWB and addtional crack-down on all aspects of firearms.

There might be other benefits. Salvador Allende was smuggling arms into Chile as things went further and further the wrong way for him and his cadre, in their "transformation" of Chile.

The deeper people dig, the worse it looks. Where is the bottom? I couldn't believe this was anything more than idiocy for a long time, but had to surrender to evidence. This scheme has poltical goals unrelated to the capos in Mexico or in the US. Where is the bottom and what else is out there?
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Old October 8, 2011, 11:41 AM   #1281
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Quote:
Where is the bottom and what else is out there?
That is a very good question. My years of military experience tell me that the number of incidents that make it into the public eye pale in comparison to the number the public never knows anything about.
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Old October 8, 2011, 01:17 PM   #1282
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A consistent pattern of the Obama administration is to pursue failed ideas, from crony capitalism, Keynesian economics, appeasement of enemies, marxist principles of healthcare delivery, etc. This is just another example with the twist that a LOT of violence and chaos invariably produces some outcry for more law and enforcement.
Speaking into wristwatch "We have one who can seeee!!! Ahhhh!!!" ...
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Old October 8, 2011, 02:28 PM   #1283
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:26 AM   #1284
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Chris Wallace will be interviewing Issa today, on Fox News Sunday, which aires at 2 and 6 pm eastern I believe.
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:29 AM   #1285
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in the "Journalists Guide..." link when i read this:
Quote:
Here's what's happened so far, at least what I can publicly disclose:
exactly what does he mean, "what I can publicly disclose" ? is he holding back critical info
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:49 AM   #1286
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What???

All i know is this, if a republican was in the white house their would be 500 democrat lawyers planted all over this,no 1,000 along with the ACLU and 20 special prosecuters from here to AZ and the press would be screaming for his head from here to heaven. I find this amazing, but not really.
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Old October 9, 2011, 01:41 PM   #1287
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100 down 2100 to go

They found 100 firearms from F&F in a cartel enforcer's home in April.

SOURCE

Quote:
Fast and Furious weapons were found in Mexico cartel enforcer's home
Guns illegally purchased under the ATF operation were found in April hidden in violence-plagued Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, court records show.

By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau
October 8, 2011, 8:46 p.m.

Reporting from Washington— High-powered assault weapons illegally purchased under the ATF's Fast and Furious program in Phoenix ended up in a home belonging to the purported top Sinaloa cartel enforcer in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, whose organization was terrorizing that city with the worst violence in the Mexican drug wars.

[MORE]
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Last edited by jimpeel; October 9, 2011 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Forgot source link
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Old October 9, 2011, 02:09 PM   #1288
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House Oversight and Government Reform Committee to issue subpoena this week to attorney general to find out what he knew about the 'gun-walking' scandal, and when.
http://www.foxnews.com/index.html

Looks like things are heating up.
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:23 PM   #1289
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Sean Hannity of whom I am not particularly fond, just devoted a one-hour Sunday special to Fast & Felonious. He recounted the entire history right up to date, had a segment (possibly taped) with Darrell Issa, a segment with the reporter Lajeunesse, who's covered this story for FOX, etc. No link yet on FOX News' web site.

Bob James
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:41 PM   #1290
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Quote:
“What did they know and when did they know it,” Mr. Issa said during an interview on Fox News confirming that the subpoenas would be released this week.
From the Washington Times and numerous other sources tonight.
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Old October 10, 2011, 01:52 AM   #1291
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At last Issa is using the old Watergate attack tactic. Hopefully it chills Holder and Obama to the bone to hear that old refrain of implicit guilt.
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Old October 10, 2011, 10:34 AM   #1292
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Issa can issue all the subpoenas he chooses, but cannot force anyone to comply. It's quite apparent that neither Holder nor anyone involved in this caper still at ATFE or DOJ is going to cooperate - and certainly not in open committee hearings. I don't see any mechanism that could possily bring thhe stonewalling to an end. Know what spelled Nixon's undoing? He still had a wee bit of shame and integrity in him and he nominated an AG who he knew would appoint a special prosecutor. Obama and Holder, etc., have none of that in them, and they are going to play this game out until the clock reads 0:00.
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Old October 10, 2011, 11:03 AM   #1293
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Quote:
Know what spelled Nixon's undoing?
Basically IIRC it was John Dean who saw SCAPEGOAT written all over him by the WH.

Once he turned...
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Old October 10, 2011, 11:48 AM   #1294
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I have made an assumption.It may be wrong.
The Rahm Emanuel Principle"Never let a crisis go to waste.Use it to accomplish what would otherwise not be possible"
Add "Ends justify means"

It morphs into creating the crisis .

Let the murdering drug gang thugs have a couple thousand AK-47's,traceable to border FFL holders.

The plan?Count on a lot of people along the border and in Mexico to be murdered and terrorized.Bingo!! A crisis!!

And,since it is international....maybe the 2nd Ammendment would be compromized by a treaty,with UN backing.

As I said,assumptions.

Pretty cold.Writing off the collateral damage ,getting folks killed,to push gun law through.

I am open to alternative motivations for F+F.

Mods,I hope this thread stays open.If my post puts it in peril,please move my post to New Thread,or delete it.

Last edited by HiBC; October 10, 2011 at 04:11 PM. Reason: Per jimpeel,changed from axelrod to emanuel
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Old October 10, 2011, 12:03 PM   #1295
gc70
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Quote:
Know what spelled Nixon's undoing?
Evidence - Nixon was vain enough to create and keep the White House tapes that proved the whole sordid tale.

Reagan was not undone by Iran-Contra because there was no definitive proof of his involvement and Oliver North was willing to take the blame.

Obama and Holder will not be undone by Fast & Furious if there is no definitive proof of their involvement still in existence; some underling can always be found to take the blame.

Last edited by gc70; October 10, 2011 at 01:50 PM.
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Old October 10, 2011, 12:26 PM   #1296
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Issa can issue all the subpoenas he chooses, but cannot force anyone to comply.
I'm not sure. Holder's tried to stonewall thus far; openly defying Congress is a different matter.

Legally, I suppose he could weasel out of appearing. Politically, what does it say if the US Attorney General flaunts a subpoena?
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Old October 10, 2011, 01:15 PM   #1297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
The Axelrod Principle"Never let a crisis go to waste.Use it to accomplish what would otherwise not be possible"
That would be Rahm Emanuel, not Axlerod.

IN HIS OWN WORDS AND IN HIS OWN VOICE
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

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Old October 10, 2011, 04:32 PM   #1298
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They said that American guns ARE THE problem Mexico. And when the numbers weren't so,
I believe others set out to make it so. I believe, It has always been about increasing/manufacturing the numbers.
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Old October 10, 2011, 05:06 PM   #1299
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Politically, what does it say if the US Attorney General flaunts a subpoena?
Nothing, if no one cares. That seems to be the situation.
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Old October 10, 2011, 05:10 PM   #1300
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Holder is gonna play deaf, mute, stupid, dumbfounded until the "Caca doddledoos"...

I bet Issa and all the rest on the oversight committee had no idea they would be this busy when they agreed to what I am sure is but a stipend allowance...

Brent
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