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Old October 4, 2011, 07:30 PM   #1226
BGutzman
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Batter up! Time for the constitution to deal a no hitter to those who would defy, defile and deny it as the supreme law of the land. F & F certainly denied due process (murder) and wasnt for the good of the people (murder & chaos) by any stretch of the imagination.

Better make so more room in those prisons...
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Old October 4, 2011, 08:20 PM   #1227
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I wish I could be as optimistic as some of y'all that anything will come of Rep. Smith's letter. Why would Obama/Holder do anything whatsoever about it? They're not worried about DOJ's budget. If the Republicans haven't been able to yank a thin dime out of BATFE's budget, what possible chance is there they'll be able to do anything to the larger DOJ budget? Pretty much nonexistent. What the Republicans have is a bully pulpit, such as it is, and not much else.
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Old October 4, 2011, 08:37 PM   #1228
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Well, the President has the incentive to handle this now rather than let it drag into the campaign season - that is unless his hands are so dirty that re-election is the least of his worries. And of course, refusing to appoint a special prosecutor in this circumstance is going to create news all on its own.

And the Republicans were not a majority in the House until November 2010, so this will be the first chance to yank on the purse strings (especially considering the previous Congress did not even pass ANY budget). Since budget bills must originate in the House, that is no small threat.
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Old October 4, 2011, 09:01 PM   #1229
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There was also the release of the book by the Black Panther case whistle blower which does not shed a good light on Holder and the DOJ. My inclination is that the White is tied up with Holder on this mess and can not afford to let him go. Holder is now having to say I misunderstood the question. This is the top lawyer in the land and he says he misunderstood the question. The interview with CBS tells me that the White house wants this to go away for a reason.
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Old October 4, 2011, 09:02 PM   #1230
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Need to look at the JG sales suit. Al correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that the F&F documents may be supeneaed in this case. Could get interesting.
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Old October 4, 2011, 09:15 PM   #1231
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Well, the President has the incentive to handle this now rather than let it drag into the campaign season - that is unless his hands are so dirty that re-election is the least of his worries. And of course, refusing to appoint a special prosecutor in this circumstance is going to create news all on its own.
I don't see it this way. First, the only play this is really getting is on Fox News - an audience the WH has long since given up on. Frankly, this F&F fiasco isn't really resonating outside us gun folks. People simply don't care. Sad, yes, but that is what I'm encountering.

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And the Republicans were not a majority in the House until November 2010, so this will be the first chance to yank on the purse strings (especially considering the previous Congress did not even pass ANY budget).
They've shown not the slightest ability to do this. Remember last week when another budget "crisis" rolled around and the issue of continuation of FEMA emergency funding of FY11 disasters came around? The House R's meekly suggested taking a couple billion out of Dept. of Energy's slush loan fund to help fund the emergency FEMA funding, and the Dems smacked that right out of the park. At each and every turn the Republicans in the House are outsmarted and outmaneuvered by the Democrats and even fellow Republicans in the Senate. That's not going to change.

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Since budget bills must originate in the House, that is no small threat.
That's what the Constitution says, but that's not how it works in DC and hasn't been in many a year. Congressional rules wink and nod at this and appropriations bills can issue from just about anyplace. Since all paths cross in reconciliation anyway, that's where the real legislation gets written.
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Old October 4, 2011, 09:25 PM   #1232
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My inclination is that the White is tied up with Holder on this mess and can not afford to let him go.
In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say.
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Old October 4, 2011, 09:57 PM   #1233
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Impeachment, conviction, imprisonment.

After all, look at what congress is trying to do to The Rocket for lying to them about 'roids.
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Old October 4, 2011, 10:09 PM   #1234
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Impeachment, conviction, imprisonment.

After all, look at what congress is trying to do to The Rocket for lying to them about 'roids.
Might want to do a little more reading there.

First, even if the Republican-controlled House brought impeachment proceedings against Obama or Holder, and an impeachment was obtained, the impeachment trial is conducted by the Senate. Said Senate still has a solid Democratic majority. Impeachment isn't going anywhere - and even if they did somehow manage an impeachment and subsequent conviction in the Senate, IT'S NOT A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING. All that can happen to the impeachee is removal from office.

As far as what the Clemens proceeding is concerned, Congress has absolutely no involvement whatsoever. The case is being prosecuted by the DoJ based on a referral from Congress. The DoJ was under no compulsion to prosecute the case, but elected to do so based on the weight of the evidence and what they saw as the severity of the crime, the public interest in the case being taken to trial, as well as the likelihood of conviction. Congress can't "make" DoJ file charges against anyone - it's prosecutorial authority extends, pretty much, to the use of "pretty please".
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Old October 5, 2011, 06:52 AM   #1235
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First, the only play this is really getting is on Fox News - an audience the WH has long since given up on. Frankly, this F&F fiasco isn't really resonating outside us gun folks.
Exactly. Very few congressmen are even talking about it; fewer than ten. Not one of the numerous presidential candidates has even mentioned Fast and Furious. Impeachment, Imprisonment; this is pipe dream stuff. It ain't going to happen.
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Old October 5, 2011, 06:54 AM   #1236
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A poster on Fox News comments offered one of the best explanations to date on why the AG was not aware of Fast and Furious.

He thought someone was sending him movie reviews.
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Old October 5, 2011, 07:26 AM   #1237
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So if you get a chance, you might drop CBS News a line and let them know that you think Sharyl Attkisson is quite reasonable in pursuing the story.
Also, tell the computers and statisticians. You do it like this:

Follow Sharyl Attkisson on Twitter and put links to her stories about this everywhere you can on the internet.
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Old October 5, 2011, 08:02 AM   #1238
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Well csmsss, I'll guess we'll just wait and see how it plays out. Personally, I don't see how the President is going to be able to downplay being asked to investigate his own Attorney General for perjury given the evidence. To the extent that certain newspapers want to spend their credibility by choosing not to cover that, I'm OK with that as well.

And the story is getting play at places other than Fox News - as I noted earlier, the reporter who broke the story and who has been right in the forefront of reporting on it is Sharyl Attkisson, a CBS News reporter. The story even made the Daily Show (who pithily summed up the incident as "So your plan to prevent drug lords from getting guns was to give drug lords guns? What plans did you reject?").

And to emphasize that point, today, the San Francisco Chronicle (of all papers) runs a story on the demand for a special prosecutor and Fast and Furious. They were however careful to note that Wide Receiver (the Tuscon operation) was actually approved by the ATF during the Bush Administration. Personally, I just want to see this covered and the investigation go forward, if that means that heads roll on a bi-partisan basis for this bad, bad, idea, then I am OK with that.

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Old October 5, 2011, 08:50 AM   #1239
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First, the only play this is really getting is on Fox News - an audience the WH has long since given up on. Frankly, this F&F fiasco isn't really resonating outside us gun folks.
I'm not sure about that. The LA Times, not exactly a bastion of gun rights lovers or Obama haters, has a regular column on Fast and Furious developments. Actually, their coverage is a heck of a lot better than that by the local AZ newspaper (AZ Daily Star).
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Old October 5, 2011, 10:51 AM   #1240
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Discussion of politics or campaign issues are beyond the F and F issue.

Please cease and desist. There are certainly many other forums to disucss Presidents and politicians who lie to the American people. Enjoy those.
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Old October 5, 2011, 02:39 PM   #1241
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Guns going out, drugs coming in. Sounds like Iran-Contra to me!

Link to court case Oct. 1, alleging the Sinaloa cartel was allowed (actually helped is more accurate) to import drugs by US Gov't. and were shipped guns by ATF. Interesting read.
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/not...sinaloa-cartel
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Old October 5, 2011, 03:33 PM   #1242
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Some updates from around the news-o-sphere:

Deputy Director William Hoover and Assistant Director Mark Chait of the ATF have been demoted. Thomas Brandon, in charge of damage control in Phoenix has been promoted to Deputy Director

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,6002965.story

Representative Issa is not happy with Eric Holder. Nor is Rep. Lamar Smith.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz1ZvlyyLq5

Representative Paul Gosar has thrown down the "accessory to murder" gauntlet. He also would like Judiciary and Oversight to get together and grill AG Holder.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/05/co...t-and-furious/

EDIT: And an update at MSNBC, which points out that Operation Wide Receiver (started and ended under the previous administration) resulted in nine indictments under the current administration.

The article skirts the "well, Bush did it too" line rather closely, but points out that Senator Grassley essentially said that regardless of who started it, "walking" guns needs to stop.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44788900...more_politics/
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Old October 5, 2011, 04:15 PM   #1243
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Accessory to murder - the actual article (above) makes a reasonable case. Let us hope we can change the non criminally charged ATF and WH Administration to the criminally charged.
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Old October 5, 2011, 07:19 PM   #1244
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Is Attkisson being silenced at CBS??

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...re_595068.html

This is troubling if true.............
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Old October 6, 2011, 02:23 AM   #1245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmsss View Post
First, the only play this is really getting is on Fox News - an audience the WH has long since given up on. Frankly, this F&F fiasco isn't really resonating outside us gun folks.
Not so. Fox, CBS, and now even CNN are going after this story. The L.A. Times, N.Y. Times, Washington Times, among others have been giving this story legs as well.
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Old October 6, 2011, 07:34 AM   #1246
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Reporters, desk chiefs and managers in the MSM are finding it more and more difficult now to ignore the story.

For one thing, they literally cannot afford to ignore it. Despite whatever their personal feelings are or how much they wish it would go away, the fact is that the operation Fast & Furious story is news. The news agencies are in the business of selling news. News equals revenue. Sitting idly by while e-zines and bloggers break the story is foregoing revenue. Watching other people report breaking news while the best that your company has is an expose on how many girlfriends Michael Jackson’s doctor had…that is going to be difficult to explain to stockholders.

Initially the MSM was neither investigating it nor reporting it. Now they are reporting it which is basically putting together a summary of the known information, and maybe discussing it between an anchor and a reporter. What I don’t see the MSM doing is investigating it. But it may be past that point now anyway.

I do think its time to appoint a special prosecutor. I don’t see a whole lot to be gained in continuing in the current state of things. I know senators love running those hearing and creating the dramatic sound bites… you can’t buy better press than that, but it’s time to appoint a special prosecutor.

I hope this doesn't become a political tool to achieve politacl ends. I would just like the truth and for people to be held accountable, either for their misdeeds or for their incompetency.

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Old October 6, 2011, 07:46 AM   #1247
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The LA Times story states that William J. Hoover tried to get operation Fast & Furious shut down six months after it began but was unable to.

If Melson was no more than a career bureaucrat, how is it that William J. Hoover couldn’t shut down the operation. I mean, who opposed him?

This seems like a story in and of itself…
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Old October 6, 2011, 09:18 AM   #1248
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Reporters, desk chiefs and managers in the MSM are finding it more and more difficult now to ignore the story.
Well, it is tough to ignore the Chairman of the House Judiciary committee asking the White House to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the Attorney General of the United States for perjury. That is a fairly big deal.

Interestingly enough, I didn't realize that this wasn't Eric Holder's first time before Congress. He was also involved in the Marc Rich scandal during the Clinton years. Apparently he was fairly forgetful during that interview as well.

Initially, I was not impressed by how the DOJ was handling this. It struck me as extremely ham-handed and Chicago-ish. The WaPo hit piece on Issa was just comical since at the time of the briefing, it was actually a Democrat majority committee and such an accusation would put many prominent Democrat representatives in the position of acknowledging that they were briefed about Fast and Furious and said nothing as well - unless of course, the briefing didn't discuss the actual gunwalking issue, in which case there is no point to the WaPo's article.

Looking back from hindsight though, there is an excellent purpose to the WaPo article. It prepared the battlefield nicely for Holder to use the same defense to protect himself (sure I knew about Fast and Furious in a general way; but I didn't know the details such as gunwalking). Of course, in Holder's case he was receiving monthly briefings on it since July, had big charts showing a massive outpour of weapons from Arizona into Mexico, and several of the people briefing him clearly did know that gunwalking was taking place.

I also like how they are pointing to the vague discussion of Fast and Furious in the released documents as support for the idea that the AG didn't know the specifics; while at the same time not acknowledging all of the documents they have withheld from the Congressional Oversight committee on the grounds of confidentiality/executive privilege. I wonder what ALL of the documents would show?

Any way, a better play by Holder than I gave him credit for with the WaPo story on Issa. It shows Holder is playing a longer view game than I gave him credit for and it shows he was more than willing to see a number of Dems on the House Oversight committee go under the bus just to gain that small advantage.
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Old October 6, 2011, 11:26 AM   #1249
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The Marc Rich and Puerto Rican terrorist deal in NY (I think Holder had a part in fixing that deal for Hillary's Senate race and support from the PR community) no doubt illustrated his potential utility to Obama.
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Old October 6, 2011, 02:20 PM   #1250
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Does anyone have any information on why William Hoover couldn't shutdown F&F in 2010?

If Melson was no more than a career bureaucrat, how is it that William J. Hoover couldn’t shut down the operation. I mean, who opposed him?
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