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Old September 29, 2011, 11:37 PM   #1176
MLeake
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One thing to bear in mind, when it comes to information sharing, is that the problem hasn't always necessarily been one of blocking or fencing off information. Another major problem is simply the massive volume of information to be shared.

I can remember sitting watches where I would receive between 500-1000 messages on a given day... and that was information that had already been sorted down to that which was theoretically useful to that desk. Filtering through all multi-departmental messages and data, to find info that is actually useful, is a lot harder than some may realize.

In many cases, too, the information isn't recognizable as useful until after the fact.

For instance, how many people would have paid attention to twenty Saudis taking flying lessons, prior to 9/11?
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Old September 30, 2011, 08:57 AM   #1177
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I agree that information can be hard to sift through but it is clear to me and it seems others and maybe yourself that this was 100% a political play and not a plan to enforce laws or bring criminals to justice.

In the event a drug lord or whatever brought weapons into Mexico (which was supposed to be one of the premises of this operation) the U.S. had no assets in Mexico that could observe where the weapons were going, let alone make any arrest. No coordination was made with the Mexican government. It was stupidity and arrogance on the highest level and to my mind arises to the level of malice of forethought and willfulness. This wasn’t negligence because this required thinking to get to this level of stupidity, it wouldn’t have occurred to this level without politics involved.

This was a decision of a power player at whatever level that was high enough in the administration that even senior bureaucrats chose to look the other way on a operation that had a 100% chance of failure. Whoever it was it was very high on the totem pole to have this level of power.

The purpose was to create a situation that would support the administration’s stance on guns. The administration wanted to show death and destruction and chaos so that guns could be further banned, outlawed and restricted. The administration had already placed into the Media’s mind that US gun dealers were responsible for a majority of the weapons being imported into Mexico. This blatant lie was pumped into the general TV media who for the most part posed it as being factual, and I’m sure that’s still the general public perception.

In the political world and in the business world perception is always king, it trumps even factual information.

From an administration stand point I believe what the political goal was is this: What great press to say wow we have all these guns killing Americans and Mexicans and the guns are coming from licensed gun stores in the United States. Taking the existing incorrect perception that had been placed as the truth and using it for a basis for new policy.

I believe the endgame was to push for overburdening regulations that would burden not only the gun purchaser but more importantly burden the gun sellers to the point that doing business would be almost impossible. I think that is still an overall goal of the administration but it’s not palatable at this time because of 2012.

The beauty of the plan as always is how many decades of fighting would it take to get the regulations defeated in the courts and they would start to take the lead in public opinion on guns. In the meantime how many gun businesses would go under? Probably many....

Like I said a political move with a political motive... Astonishingly bad, horribly arrogant and a attitude that no one can or should ignore. Acts and deeds like this cannot be allowed to stand.. It is sadly unfunny how you or I as law abiding citizens would never willing give guns to murdering drug cartels and yet the mangement of the ATF could and did without so much as a blink..
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Old September 30, 2011, 09:27 AM   #1178
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The local ABC affiliate in Phoenix is reporting that there will be more hearings into Fast and Furious, perhaps as early as October.

In addition, the next set of hearings will be joint hearings of both the House Judiciary Committee (which controls the purse strings for DOJ) and the House Oversight Committee. So DOJ will now be answering the people who write the checks directly.

Issa also indicated that eventually AG Eric Holder and AAG Lanny Breuer will be called to testify. Rep. Paul Gosar of the Oversight Committee also indicated that while Dennis Burke (US AG in AZ who had a major role in Fast and Furious, now resigned) has given private testimony to Congress, he would like to have him give public testimony on his involvement.

In somewhat related news, William Newell has now amended his July testimony before Congress which he says "lacked clarity." Based on the report, the amendment is really just more "See, this wasn't as bad an idea as it initially sounded" from Newell. He blames delayed reporting as being why ATF did not interdict more firearms, not the whole poilcy if deliberately not interdicting them.

In the same article, FOX reports that the FBI is also denying the existence of a third weapon at the Terry murder scene and says that there were only two weapons despite the audio tape from Howard and an ATF agent discussing the third weapon or the email also referencing a third weapon. The FBI claims the confusion came from it mistakenly identifying one of the AK47s made in Romania as an SKS made in China, causing the mistaken idea there were three rifles. They didn't discuss how they managed to misidentify only one of two identical rifles. Sen. Grassley noted he was skeptical of this explanation.
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Old September 30, 2011, 08:53 PM   #1179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
So actually, it's worse than Iran-Contra, as I can't actually assign a potentially worthy motive nor justification.
It has been theorized that OF&F was intended to arm favored cartels. Some would consider that a worthy motive or justification, considering that our country has previously armed enemies to fight those we considered worse enemies. Also, remember that some (and many in the media) did not consider the motives underlying Iran-Contra to be worthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Yet the press isn't really all over this. They might eventually be embarrassed into having to provide real coverage, as I agree with those posters who've theorized the MSM will realize they are being scooped left and right and are starting to look incompetent.
I have no doubt that MSM coverage of OF&F will increase. Unfortunately, I expect the coverage will follow the path of the New York Times in decrying an unfortunate situation resulting from the well-meaning but misguided actions of low-level government employees.
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Old September 30, 2011, 11:19 PM   #1180
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The White House today turned over documnts concerning the 3 staffers who were briefed on "Fast and Furious" but withheld an unspecified number of documents because "the White House has confidentiality concerns.". Yeah, I bet they do. That is kind of what we are concerned about.
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Old September 30, 2011, 11:58 PM   #1181
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Who should be coordinating the activities of these agencies again? Eric Holder, who knew nothing about what his various agencies were doing and the laws they were breaking.
-------------------------------Check out the DOJ news letter April 2, 2009 and then tell us He didn't know.
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Old October 1, 2011, 12:07 AM   #1182
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It has been theorized that OF&F was intended to arm favored cartels.
They could have just shipped the darned things directly, or laundered them through intermediaries. Why involve the potential security leaks, such as disgruntled agents and gun store proprietors? Why risk having them turn up on home soil at crime scenes?

At the very best, I assume incompetence and hubris. At worst, this was a very badly mishandled scheme to inflate false statistics.
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:54 AM   #1183
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Quote:
They could have just shipped the darned things directly
The guns would have been traced back directly to the US government.

Quote:
or laundered them through intermediaries.
That's what they were effectively trying to do here.

Quote:
Why involve the potential security leaks, such as disgruntled agents and gun store proprietors?
You are going to have that problem no matter what method you chose.

Quote:
Why risk having them turn up on home soil at crime scenes?
No matter what method they chose that was bound to happen.

Quote:
At the very best, I assume incompetence and hubris. At worst, this was a very badly mishandled scheme to inflate false statistics.
True, we ARE talking about a government who thinks the solution to an economic crisis are the same things that led to the crisis in the first place.
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Old October 1, 2011, 10:46 AM   #1184
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El Paso police turn up Fast & Furious weapons

Sept 29th 2011

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep...-guns-20110929

This is one reason why the F&F scandal won't go away. The guns keep turning up periodically.
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Old October 1, 2011, 03:26 PM   #1185
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The new documents released by the WH today indicate a strong connection between the WH and the agent in charge of this operation. All the denials from the WH about not being involved are looking very fishy now. There were also a lot of phone calls between the "then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly" and the "then-ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix office Bill Newell - who led Fast and Furious". Once again the WH has been caught with it's hand in the cookie jar.
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Old October 1, 2011, 03:55 PM   #1186
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In the past couple of days, Roger Aronoff has weighed in with THIS ARTICLE.

An interesting thing from that article is this:

Quote:
Cooper’s reporter on this story, Drew Griffin, tried to explain a possible motive for Fast and Furious. He said that “the operation makes no sense.” So in attempting to explain it, he invoked the usual bogeymen. “So what's the real purpose?,” asked Griffin. “The lack of sense, the apparent cover-up has opened the door now for these conspiracy theorists. And you got to follow this. They believe this was part of a convoluted plan for the Obama administration and the attorney general to actually increase the level of violence on the Mexican border with assault weapons purchased in the U.S. in an apparent attempt to rekindle interest in an assault weapons ban. As wacky as that may sound, I must tell you that theory is gaining traction, not just among the second amendment crowd, because this operation makes no other sense.”
That is a good thing to hear, that CNN's Anderson Cooper has now weighed in on this.

VIDEO LINK
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Old October 1, 2011, 04:41 PM   #1187
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It makes perfect sense, once you admit who they are, what they want, and what they'll do to get there.
What does make no sense, is this is the same press that swore that this administration was above reproach and would go down in history as the cleanest thing since sterile baby wipes.
Then again...I covered that in sentence one, but even they...hate being scooped.

Glad those facts are still coming out.
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Old October 1, 2011, 04:43 PM   #1188
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It greatly disturbs me to hear or read the word "botched" and/or "blunder" when these unconscionable ATF actions are described. ATF didn't botch anything. Their plan was executed exactly as intended, with the intended results - they just didn't expect to be traced on the supply side is all.
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Old October 1, 2011, 06:01 PM   #1189
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I agree that it wasn't a botched plan. They never made any attempt to trace those weapons and what sense would have made to do that anyway? If they could trace the weapons they could trace the drugs the gangs are shipping. It was clear as a bell an attempt to make it look like more US weapons get used in Mexican drug wars. Anyone old enough to remember Iran Contra? Why is selling weapons to Iran worse than selling weapons to Mexican drug gangs and that's exactly what they did. IMO it's far worse because Mexico is a country ready to implode and it's right on our border. If people think the flood of illegals is bad now just wait.

The anti-gun crowd will lie and cheat to get their way just like every other liberal cause. I'm not the least surprised by their actions. This is Chicago style politics at it's worst too. Obama has tried to use this to create a registry of guns which would "start" on the border states and would certainly expand to other states as soon as they could trump up charges that guns were being bought in other states because of the registry. They wanted the gang killings to be done with US bought weapons. It's treason of course but it will never be treated as such.
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Old October 1, 2011, 08:11 PM   #1190
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It's treason of course but it will never be treated as such.
I dunno if it exactly fits "treason" in a clinical definition, but this gambit, like so many others fills in a picture of a group with an agenda that involves massive reductions in personal freedom by any means they think "effective". And Obama will skate, Holder will skate, think themselves mighty fine and just doin' another cakewalk. If there is a God and He thinks as I believe He does, they have a tough future ahead, but it may not happen for quite a while. I may never know of it.

The only good thing out of this is further confirmation of how inept, ignorant, etc, this group of smarties is. The bulk of the media types will try to bury the ****, but, as the Anderson Cooper episode points out, some people are adding the sums to conclusions they may not like but can't find another explanation for. A few of them genuinely are finding themselves in a moral dilemma. I bet the guy reporting to Cooper on this, leaving him with no out to explain this mess away, is not going to be getting regular assignments again, if Cooper can fix it. He certainly has made enemies elsewhere. My hope is that he finds himself wanting to talk with David Mamet.

The conclusion by the reporter on Cooper's segment is not the only one thinking that way in media, but as the **** matures, or ripens, the choices starts to be to pose as a complete idiot (unable to see what is before you), pretend nothing is happening (you are ignorant of what is happening around you) or start asking real questions. Those journalists and savants who know nothing unless NYT says it happened will continue without clue.

We didn't get into this fiasco, generally, without a lot of effort by many people in many places. Digging out is going to take the same kind of effort. Sometimes it's being a pain at a gathering, when someone bloviates ignorantly about how righteous Obama really is. Speak up to the contrary, calm, use facts, not emotion.

F+F is a great example of how low Obama will go for his agenda...besides wearing "momma pants", taking more vacations in a year than most of us have in the last five (and we paid for ours...and his) and then telling you are too "soft" and can't face up to meeting his requirements, his agenda.

Lots has been writ about Obama's self-esteem. The gap between the reality we occupy and his reality seems to be growing steadily, and this is a good thing, for us. Obama is a bad man. He has brought in bad people. The stables need cleaning out.
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Old October 1, 2011, 08:33 PM   #1191
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True, we ARE talking about a government who thinks the solution to an economic crisis are the same things that led to the crisis in the first place.
Well said, Crosshair. Let me add, please, money is to governments as heroin to addicts.
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Old October 1, 2011, 08:42 PM   #1192
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Anyone old enough to remember Iran Contra?
I remember and I bet it will end up with the same testimony. "I have no clear recollection of that" But I bet the administration is going to have a harder time finding an Oliver North to take the fall for them.
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Old October 2, 2011, 07:41 AM   #1193
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But I bet the administration is going to have a harder time finding an Oliver North to take the fall for them.
They'll have no trouble finding a willing scapegoat. Burke and Newell have already volunteered during Congressional testimony. Finding a PR savvy one who can offer a justifiable explanation for how giving drug cartels firearms was a strategy designed to reduce the amount of firearms used by drug cartels may be a little tougher.
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Old October 2, 2011, 11:10 AM   #1194
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They believe this was part of a convoluted plan for the Obama administration and the attorney general to actually increase the level of violence on the Mexican border with assault weapons purchased in the U.S. in an apparent attempt to rekindle interest in an assault weapons ban.
I don’t know what percentage of weapons were assault weapons vs other categories. My reading to date seems to empathize that the 50 cal sniper rifles were a favorite but that may only have been the writers preference and not by the numbers fact.

But the perception (right or wrong) I have is that this was focused on 50 cal and assault weapons with a sprinkling of handguns that supposedly have some body armor penetrating capability or are easy to conceal.

My estimation is that they were trying to arm the cartels with sniper weapons so that they could shoot our non ATF border agents from the other side of the river (border) thus supply the chaos and death that they could point at our gun dealers for. (Even though the dealers were only obeying ATF orders and would not have otherwise made the sale.)

The Assault weapons providing some extra hype and the supposedly armor penetrating pistols providing a brew that could be used to show all guns in general as being a threat. (Even though the whole situation was contrived using tax payer dollars)

I think the goal was banning or restricting guns to the point that business was going to be impossible but the program never got the whole octopus of new regulations they only got started.

Unless the sniper rifles were to be incorporated into the assault weapons ban I think the goal had to be more than just an assault weapons ban. I could be wrong but the vary variety of weapons seems to suggest a larger scope.
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Old October 2, 2011, 12:33 PM   #1195
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BGutzman, I hope you are wrong, and Border Patrolmen don't start falling to 50cal Barret fire from some of those hillside homes across the in Nogales, Sonora, for instance. I would hazard a guess that if that did happen the flood of outrage would resemble the Japanese tsunami.
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Old October 2, 2011, 12:41 PM   #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff56
The new documents released by the WH today indicate a strong connection between the WH and the agent in charge of this operation. All the denials from the WH about not being involved are looking very fishy now. There were also a lot of phone calls between the "then-White House National Security Staffer Kevin O'Reilly" and the "then-ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix office Bill Newell - who led Fast and Furious". Once again the WH has been caught with it's hand in the cookie jar.
But the administration's line now is "Well, okay, yes, he knew about it ... but he didn't KNOW about it."

The Dems seem to have dredged up copies of Edwin Newman's books about political doublespeak from the post-Watergate inquiries, and they're using them as their playbook.

Remember: How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving.
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Old October 2, 2011, 01:04 PM   #1197
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I hope you are wrong, and Border Patrolmen don't start falling to 50cal Barret fire from some of those hillside homes across the in Nogales, Sonora, for instance. I would hazard a guess that if that did happen the flood of outrage would resemble the Japanese tsunami.
Armoredman I hope I am wrong too but I cant see any other purpose behind it and I know I just saw a news bit the other day saying the cartels are defending their loads against our law enforcement.

A sniper rifle would seem to be a poor choice for the quick attacks against other cartels and civilians, the only other choice I see is ambushes of our guys.

A boat crossing the river or whatever supported by snipers. Imagine the reluctance of law enforcement to enforce and act if our guys get dropped as soon as they stop or get out of the blazers, etc. It would be a true nightmare in so many ways...

Sure I could be wrong and my point is not to spread more unfounded theorys but looking at the available evidence it is my best guess..
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Old October 2, 2011, 05:38 PM   #1198
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According to CBS News, the ATF provided this chart to the White House in 2010:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/FF_p93_chart.pdf

I don't see how you can have looked at that chart and not understood that the ATF Arizona program was letting guns walk to Mexico. The emails also appear to reveal another gunwalking program out of Tuscon called "Wide Receiver."
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Old October 2, 2011, 06:09 PM   #1199
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The chart itself is an admission that we knew that we were running up a body count in a foreign nation. Are we fighting a undeclared war against Mexico with drug lords as our weapon of choice?

I hope not but the circumstances seem to fit the idea. How or why this isn’t front page on every paper in the nation is beyond me. This could easily be seen as an act of war and if the situation were reversed I think our nation would see it as a declaration of war.

I didn’t realize the ATF and the DOJ had the power to declare war on their own...

Im not an expert on international law or any law but this may fall under the title of "Belligerent Nation" or a similar heading under the Geneva Convention.
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Old October 2, 2011, 06:36 PM   #1200
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Isn't that something we can't have assault weapons in california but the government will smuggle them through are border totally unfair I just hope them ar 15s had bullet button and ten round mags
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