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Old September 28, 2011, 11:28 PM   #1151
alan
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BGutzman wrote:ATF - All Types of Felons..... sorry to paint with so wide a brush but its a sad state of affairs...
---------------------------------------

The observation/characterization has a certain ring, it seems to me.

alloy wrote:Forbes has a fairly comprehensive piece on the topic of Fast and Furious.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...mas-watergate/
----------------------------

Strikes me that Forbes, essentially a business related publication has a lengthy piece on Fast and Furious is more than just "interesting", it seems.

Additionally, re the following excerpt, "Why a gunrunning scandal codenamed “Fast and Furious,” a program run secretly by the U.S. government that sent thousands of firearms over an international border and directly into the hands of criminals, hasn’t been pursued by an army of reporters all trying to be the next Bob Woodward or Carl Bernstein is a story in itself", seems a most interesting question. Might media's traditional anti gun slant have a bearing on what seems the conspicious lack of activity by "investigative reporters" regarding this entire fiasco, or might it be that it has been run under a Democratic Administration bear on the seeming lack of media interest, a question that has been, I believe, previously raised.

Seems as if the cheese gets ever more binding.
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Old September 29, 2011, 05:49 AM   #1152
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The link, she'sa no work.
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Old September 29, 2011, 06:19 AM   #1153
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...mas-watergate/

Should work.
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Old September 29, 2011, 06:34 AM   #1154
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The FBI informant who was buying the guns for the cartels was actually an undercover DEA agent, reports CBS News' Sharyl Attkisson.

Quote:
According to Grassley and Issa, if the DEA and FBI had shared information with ATF, "then Operation Fast and Furious may have ended as many as ten months sooner than it did. This would have prevented hundreds of assault-type weapons from being illegally straw purchased on behalf of Mexican drug cartels."

The letter outlines an amazing alleged failure of DEA and FBI to share crucial investigative information with ATF.

It says while ATF was trying to identify the unnamed financier behind a gun trafficking ring leader named Manuel Celis-Acosta, the DEA and FBI already knew who the financier was - and had in fact turned him into a confidential informant. Yet, the letter states, the financier was allowed to continue to purchase weapons from Acosta over the course of a year, without ATF ever knowing that the man they were seeking to identify... was a government informant.

The letter also states that prior to becoming a confidential informant, the financier may have used $3,500 in taxpayer money, "official law enforcement funds," to finance weapons trafficking. He allegedly received the money - not knowing it came from the U.S. government -- by selling narcotics to another government confidential informant.

The Justice Department had no immediate comment.
Who should be coordinating the activities of these agencies again? Eric Holder, who knew nothing about what his various agencies were doing and the laws they were breaking.
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Old September 29, 2011, 08:42 AM   #1155
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The fact that this article appeared in Forbes is good.

I haven't seen staff reporters at the major news organization produce much on this, but I have a feeling they will start. The staff reporters in the major MSM outlets are losing out, and it's somewhat of a goldmine of news. Despite the political views of the reporters and their managers - no one can afford to be outclassed and out-scooped.

I think that one of the things that Frank Miniter has done in this article better than any single article on the scandal so far is that he shows that it's doubtful the operation was put together to somehow build a case against the cartels - none of the requisite work to accomplish that was ever done. There are gaping holes in standard investigative processes, inexplicable lapses in planning and an incredible lack of foresight and planning - if they were really trying to build a case against the cartels.

However, if they were simply trying to show that lax gun laws in the United States were responsible for arming the Mexican drug cartels - they had everything they needed to accomplish that.

In order to show that irresponsibly lax gun laws were responsible for arming dangerous Mexican drug cartels, they merely had to get U.S. guns into the hands of the cartel, have the guns show up at crime scenes, have a straw buyer in custody and be able to trace the guns to U.S. gun stores. I’ll admit that there were some problems with this plan – such as having any of the gun store owners reveal that the sales to straw purchasers would not have even been completed except at the urging of the BATFE. But maybe to the BATFE, that was considered a minor PR detail that could have been glazed over.

The Forbes article does make it clear that if the intent of Operation Fast and Furious was to build a case that there are problems with current gun law – then they mostly had their bases covered. If the intent was to build a case against the cartels – it was inexplicably lacking in basic investigative procedures. In that regard, the operation was so poorly, planned and so poorly executed that it calls into question the stated intent of the operation.
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Old September 29, 2011, 09:20 AM   #1156
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It's more than the media. Issa and Grassley are having trouble getting traction with other members of the US congress. Those in congress who claim to care about our Second Amendment rights are saying little or nothing about Fast and Furious. My congressman did not answer my letter and e-mail on the subject.

Take a look at this organizational chart and tell me that someone high in the US justice Dep't will be held accountable for the Fast and Furious debacle. In a worst case scenario some career bureaucrats will be "censured" and retire.

http://www.justice.gov/agencies/index-org.html
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Old September 29, 2011, 09:30 AM   #1157
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Quote:
The letter also states that prior to becoming a confidential informant, the financier may have used $3,500 in taxpayer money, "official law enforcement funds," to finance weapons trafficking. He allegedly received the money - not knowing it came from the U.S. government -- by selling narcotics to another government confidential informant.
So, the FBI gave their informant $71,000 of taxpayer money to buy guns (see earlier post). The ATF bought 6 Draco pistols with taxpayer money, which it later sold to people working for the informant (who presumably paid in taxpayer money). Meanwhile, there is some secondary financing going on as other government informants buy $3,500 worth of drugs from the cartel with taxpayer money.

I am starting to get the impression that the U.S. taxpayer is a significant source of funding for these cartels. Maybe if we stopped giving them money, that would help the Mexican government?
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Old September 29, 2011, 10:48 AM   #1158
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Insert "My Head is Spinning" emoticon here ---> _____
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Old September 29, 2011, 11:04 AM   #1159
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Quote:
I think that one of the things that Frank Miniter has done in this article better than any single article on the scandal so far is that he shows that it's doubtful the operation was put together to somehow build a case against the cartels - none of the requisite work to accomplish that was ever done. There are gaping holes in standard investigative processes, inexplicable lapses in planning and an incredible lack of foresight and planning - if they were really trying to build a case against the cartels.

However, if they were simply trying to show that lax gun laws in the United States were responsible for arming the Mexican drug cartels - they had everything they needed to accomplish that.
Unfortunately, the difference between the avowed goal and results is so great, one has to wonder what the real goal is. Worse, this kind of basic gap exists between so many other policies and results thereof of this administration. The broad pattern of saying "A" and getting "B" as a result is awful broad to be simple ineptitude or accident.
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Old September 29, 2011, 11:25 AM   #1160
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Just remember you can always tell when a politician is lying.

Their lips are moving.
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Old September 29, 2011, 01:58 PM   #1161
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Yesterday, the President had a "round table" with three reporters from Spanish-media news outlets. One of the reporters asked a question about Fast and Furious. His answer was pretty vague. Obviously it was bound to be - I didn't expect him to stand up and say, "Oh, ok, yes, it was all mine and Holder's fault and we're sorry." But even for a political answer, it was pretty weak.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/ob...-latino-media/

It all boiled down to something along the lines of "it's hard to do the job" and "the ATF budget is too tight." Whew.
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Old September 29, 2011, 02:56 PM   #1162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by President Obama
"Part of the problem is budgetary [and] … we are going to have to figure out ways to operate smarter and more efficiently in investigations without a huge expansion of resources because those resources are aren’t there" Source
Well, the good news is with the precedent established by Fast and Furious, you can cruise down to the local elementary school and get ideas that will easily qualify as both "smarter" and "more efficient" - and that isn't even hyperbole.
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Old September 29, 2011, 03:49 PM   #1163
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Where his lips moving?
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Old September 29, 2011, 04:12 PM   #1164
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What corporate America learned decades and decades ago is that there are tremendous cost savings and efficiencies to be gained by consolidating.

If you have three corporations like three banks, each one of those companies has a management structure, their own marketing organization, their own IT department, etc...

When one bank buys the other two, they can reduce the number of people needed, they have only one marketing department, IT department etc...

Not only do we not need a federal law enforcement agency that specializes in drugs and another that specializes in tobacco crimes. But it’s actually counter-productive. Fast and Furious proves it.

They need to get rid of DEA, BATFE, and also fold the counterfeiting investigations that the Secret Service does – all into the FBI. When the presiden talks about ATF's budget I just think of how much waste there is in it - how many of those middle managers are just not needed if the personnel were folded into an existing management structure.

If they did this they would instantly realize some savings because they would have 2 less directors to pay.
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Old September 29, 2011, 05:16 PM   #1165
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Quote:
What corporate America learned decades and decades ago is that there are tremendous cost savings and efficiencies to be gained by consolidating.

If you have three corporations like three banks, each one of those companies has a management structure, their own marketing organization, their own IT department, etc...

When one bank buys the other two, they can reduce the number of people needed, they have only one marketing department, IT department etc...
That only works to a point until you run into the economic calculation problem and fall victim to smaller and more nimble competitors.
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Old September 29, 2011, 05:30 PM   #1166
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Maybe I'm an alarmist but I think I'd rather have ATF keep the records, do the FFL inspections, handle paperwork, but turn over this top secret stuff to the other agencies.
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Old September 29, 2011, 07:33 PM   #1167
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Quote:
Maybe I'm an alarmist but I think I'd rather have ATF keep the records, do the FFL inspections, handle paperwork, but turn over this top secret stuff to the other agencies.
Why does there need to be any paperwork? I don't recall many gun-specific problems until *after* 1968.
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Old September 29, 2011, 07:37 PM   #1168
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Even better.
No paperwork works for me, problem solved.
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The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
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Old September 29, 2011, 08:17 PM   #1169
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Quote:
but turn over this top secret stuff to the other agencies.
I prefer felonies involving death and chaos to occur far from the borders of our nation, say like the empty parts of the south pole...

Someone somewhere apparently had this agenda to make guns look bad with taxpayer money and it was done for a purely political purpose because I cant see a single mature educated adult even attempting to defend this lunacy. It never had a hope of convicting much of anyone but it had a great chance of creating deaths within our nation... with taxpayer money....

George Washington is turning over in his grave and wondering why he wasted all his time... Im prettty sure this was not what that constitution was meant to support...
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Old September 29, 2011, 09:10 PM   #1170
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Quote:
The letter outlines an amazing alleged failure of DEA and FBI to share crucial investigative information with ATF.
"Amazing?" Do I look amazed?
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Old September 29, 2011, 10:43 PM   #1171
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Yes, amazed anyone could possibly be this stupid and conniving.
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Old September 29, 2011, 11:18 PM   #1172
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publius42 closed with the following:

Who should be coordinating the activities of these agencies again? Eric Holder, who knew nothing about what his various agencies were doing and the laws they were breaking.
-------------------------------

Are you sure that Holder, in effect. hasn't a clue as to what is going on? Which of two possibilities might be worse. One being the above mentioned, the other being that he knows exactly what is going on, but simply considers himself to be above and beyond the law, which by the way he is sworn to enforce/uphold. By the way, that is just one of the things that Holder is sworn to do, another is, I believe, to "uphold and defend the Constitution".

Additionally, re the FBI, the DEA and ATF, do these people have that proverbial clue?
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Old September 29, 2011, 11:24 PM   #1173
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the organizational chart shown by thalub:

http://www.justice.gov/agencies/index-org.html

looks like a classic case of Hide and Seek, or possibly Hide The Salami. Muddy The Waters.
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Old September 29, 2011, 11:27 PM   #1174
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In a way, this reminds me of Iran-Contra.

Reagan's defense was that he was unaware of the actions of his subordinates. To me, that wasn't a defense; it was an indictment. I could have accepted Reagan saying that he and Congress differed on what privileges the Constitution afforded the Executive branch, as far as foreign policy constraints from Congress; I'd have respected a battle between Executive and Legislative in SCOTUS. But I'd have voted against Reagan, had he been eligible to run for a third term, because I was disgusted that he could be ignorant of such a large plan within his administration, or that he could expect me to believe that he was ignorant of it, yet competent to serve as President.

Seems to me the press was all over the Reagan administration over Iran-Contra....

My views on the current Administration, President, and AG are much the same in this instance as they were over Iran-Contra. If they were truly ignorant, then they are incompetent. If they were not ignorant of it, then they wilfully violated the law, and the public trust... So actually, it's worse than Iran-Contra, as I can't actually assign a potentially worthy motive nor justification.

Yet the press isn't really all over this. They might eventually be embarrassed into having to provide real coverage, as I agree with those posters who've theorized the MSM will realize they are being scooped left and right and are starting to look incompetent.
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Old September 29, 2011, 11:31 PM   #1175
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From Standing Wolf
Quote:
The letter outlines an amazing alleged failure of DEA and FBI to share crucial investigative information with ATF.

"Amazing?" Do I look amazed?
------------------------------

I thought that, via The Patriot Act, that the "information sharing walls" had been taken down. Do I think wrong?
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