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Old September 25, 2011, 03:15 PM   #1126
alan
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Re the general media "soft peddling" the criminal fiasco that is the BATFE, it's current name, and the foul-up that was, is and remains Operation Fast and Furious, given the anti-gun, anti gun rights slant long part and parcel of media's "lock, stock and barrel", is anyone really surprised.

As for the role played in all this by our "elected things", the fact that "ATF" has been allowed to run wild through administrations both Democratic as well as Republican speaks volumes about the problems the citizenry face vis-à-vis their government , The Congress (elected things) being a part thereof.
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Old September 25, 2011, 07:26 PM   #1127
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Katie Pavlich says that there is a White Paper circulating in Washington that discusses abolishing ATF firing 450 agents.

Either Katie didn't explain it fully or she doesn't understand it herself but firing 450 agents doesn't abolish BATFE which has approximately 4500 employees.
If the ATF was abolished I suspect most of the employees would be shuffled to other agencies, as actually firing them is extremely difficult. The 450 number is probably just the ones that are still in their probationary period, or that are in a position to be fired for misconduct.
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Old September 25, 2011, 09:46 PM   #1128
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On another note...

Can anyone tell me what Jay Dobyn's role in this is?

Was he involved in the actual operation or is he just jumping on the dog pile now so he can make TV appearances?
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Old September 25, 2011, 10:05 PM   #1129
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If the ATF was abolished I suspect most of the employees would be shuffled to other agencies, as actually firing them is extremely difficult. The 450 number is probably just the ones that are still in their probationary period, or that are in a position to be fired for misconduct.
Assuming Congress had the inclination and ability to abolish BATFE, it would also presumably have the prerogative of modifying civil service statutes. There is no constitutional right to continuing governmental employment.
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Old September 25, 2011, 11:12 PM   #1130
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A Civil Service employee does have some rights. Unless these 450 agents can be released for cause there has to be a Reduction In Force (RIF) which takes several factors into consideration such as length of service, reviews, veterans preferences ect. The only way to do this would be to reduce the authorized positions for the agency by 450. The agency can decide which 450positons get cut. However theere are guidlines for determining who stays and who goes. So the agency would have to follow those rules to decide who stays and who goes.
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Old September 26, 2011, 10:24 AM   #1131
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Eghad, Congress can amend/repeal those civil service regs at any time (with presidential signature or overriden veto, of course). The circumstances which would be amenable to the elimination of entire bureaus/departments/agencies would be just as amenable to the rewrite or repeal of civil service regs. Once again, there is no CONSTITUTIONAL right to continuing fderal employment - only statutory, an entirely different item altogether.
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Old September 26, 2011, 11:48 AM   #1132
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Eghad, Congress can amend/repeal those civil service regs at any time (with presidential signature or overriden veto, of course). The circumstances which would be amenable to the elimination of entire bureaus/departments/agencies would be just as amenable to the rewrite or repeal of civil service regs. Once again, there is no CONSTITUTIONAL right to continuing fderal employment - only statutory, an entirely different item altogether.
They could, but why would they? If the ATF was eliminated, those people would still be needed in whatever agency or agencies would take over the ATF's responsibilities. Why go through the hassle of drawn out legal battles and negative impact on over two million Federal workers just so that you can more easily fire 4000 or so "good" workers that are already trained to do their jobs?
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Old September 26, 2011, 12:09 PM   #1133
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This was a political manipulation in the pursuit a political gain to impair a right given in the constitution with little or no concern for the good of the nation nor any concern by our government that the operation itself is / was a violation of the spirit and possibly the letter of the nation’s Constitution. – It promoted the loss of life, knowingly and willfully and in the hope than murder and crime would be carried out.

The system is broken, without leadership and unbound to constitutional responsibilities or restraints except where lip service is given.

The AFT, DOJ and wherever above need to be eliminated, reformed or retrained or some partial combination of the above.
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Old September 26, 2011, 12:32 PM   #1134
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Just keeps getting better and better.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...ocuments-show/

"Not only did U.S. officials approve, allow and assist in the sale of more than 2,000 guns to the Sinaloa cartel -- the federal government used taxpayer money to buy semi-automatic weapons, sold them to criminals and then watched as the guns disappeared."
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Old September 26, 2011, 12:46 PM   #1135
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Wait a minute...

Quote:
Agent John Dodson was ordered to buy six semi-automatic Draco pistols (...) then sold the weapons to known illegal buyers, while fellow agents watched from their cars nearby.
According to that story, the ATF didn't just stand by and watch the sales happen, they were conducting straw purchases themselves. Why didn't Dodson bring this up in his testimony to Congress?
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Old September 26, 2011, 01:07 PM   #1136
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Why didn't Dodson bring this up in his testimony to Congress?
Self incrimination?
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Old September 26, 2011, 01:13 PM   #1137
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Self incrimination?
Nuremberg Defense.
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Old September 26, 2011, 01:26 PM   #1138
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Quote:
Self incrimination?
I doubt that was it since Dodson was one of the initial whistleblowers who made Fast and Furious public. Without him going on CBS News, it might never have gone anywhere. Although I notice the Fox News article alleges that Voth may have assigned Dodson to that task in order to "dirty him up" since he was a vocal critic of the operation.

In other news, Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News reports that the White House said that NSC Staffer Kevin O"Reilly would not be available to testify to Congress regarding what the White House Staff knew about "Fast and Furious" because he was on a "previously scheduled assignment to Iraq."

The White House did not deny an interview; but also declined to say when O'Reilly would be available. Wonder what the assignment is? Searching for IEDs blindfolded? Considering he is the only direct link to White House Staff revealed so far, I wonder how Mr. O'Reilly feels about his assignment in Iraq?
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Old September 26, 2011, 04:08 PM   #1139
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I wonder how Mr. O'Reilly feels about his assignment in Iraq?
What was that Sec'y of Commerce name who went down a while back... Croatia... (Clintons admin wasn't it?) looked it up, Ron Brown. Yep. That's it.

Hope he's careful. Next stop, Afghanistan or maybe even Pakistan to, you know, bolster the troops for the CinC?

What is that Pynchon quote WA has... If they can get you to ask the wrong questions, they don't worry about the answers. Seems appropos here.
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Old September 26, 2011, 08:18 PM   #1140
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Don't want to go into the C-130 crash outside Jackson's Hole and any links to Ron Brown's crash.

Anyone giving odds on O'rileys safe return.

Last edited by ltc444; September 26, 2011 at 08:20 PM. Reason: typo on 130
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Old September 26, 2011, 11:26 PM   #1141
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Re Mr. O'Reilly's safe return from Iraq or wherever, that might depend on that old story line, the one that goes as follows:

An unnamed party has a really fat envelope of documents to be opened and distributed in the event of my untimely demise or disappearance. So long as I show up when and where expected, in good health and or make scheduled, verifiable contact, the previously mentioned envelope stays sealed.

Yes it does sound corny, akin to a badly written mystery or spy tale, but then but then truth might be stranger than fiction.
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Old September 27, 2011, 04:27 PM   #1142
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Eghad said:
"A Civil Service employee does have some rights. Unless these 450 agents can be released for cause there has to be a Reduction In Force (RIF) which takes several factors into consideration such as length of service, reviews, veterans preferences ect. The only way to do this would be to reduce the authorized positions for the agency by 450. The agency can decide which 450positons get cut. However theere are guidlines for determining who stays and who goes. So the agency would have to follow those rules to decide who stays and who goes. "

Don't lose sight of the fact that the government employee's unions are a powerful voting block that most every congress-thing will pander to for re-election.

Also remember that the information about this scandal indicates the FBI, DEA, State Department and the IRS were involved as well.

Frankly, I would dance a jig if all these alphabet soup agencies were flushed down the toilet....but I won't hold my breath in anticipation of such an event.
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Old September 27, 2011, 05:33 PM   #1143
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With the exception of the few whistleblowers who've already come forward, I don't get the sense that any of these senior level staffers are the least bit inclined to spill the beans. They're not getting this guy out of country to silence him, they're getting him out of the country to shut up the House committee.

These staffers aren't executing policies they're troubled by. They're true believers and despise private firearms ownership and will stop at nothing to curtail it - apparently by any means available, legal or no.
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Old September 27, 2011, 08:45 PM   #1144
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Including outrageously unconstitutional means with malice of forethought.
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Old September 27, 2011, 08:52 PM   #1145
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Oops, I thought someone had already posted this cartoon but I guess not. Need to break things up now and then with some comic relief.



/Got to love C&H.
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Old September 28, 2011, 12:28 AM   #1146
alan
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csmsss writes:

With the exception of the few whistleblowers who've already come forward, I don't get the sense that any of these senior level staffers are the least bit inclined to spill the beans. They're not getting this guy out of country to silence him, they're getting him out of the country to shut up the House committee.

These staffers aren't executing policies they're troubled by. They're true believers and despise private firearms ownership and will stop at nothing to curtail it - apparently by any means available, legal or no.
--------------------------

The foregoing are both interesting and troubling. See also that nearby cartoon, which of and in itself, might speak volumes.
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Old September 28, 2011, 04:59 PM   #1147
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Hopefully the dots are not connected, but it does seem a little ripe that former Obama OMB director Peter Orszag and then the dipstick governor of SC come up within a week of each other advocating less democracy/delayed elections as ways to break the gridlock in DC.

Perdue's remark is being spun as a joke, but she either wasn't or has a very odd sense of humor from the video...and Orszag was absolutely serious. In light of the House hearings, I suspect it is unlikely sweeping gun control legislation will get to the proposal stage, except for Carolyn McCarthy's usual stuff.

And if F+F was still "under the radar"? One has to ask.
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Old September 28, 2011, 07:36 PM   #1148
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ATF - All Types of Felons..... sorry to paint with so wide a brush but its a sad state of affairs...
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Old September 28, 2011, 07:39 PM   #1149
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Forbes has a fairly comprehensive piece on the topic of Fast and Furious.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin...mas-watergate/
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Old September 28, 2011, 10:27 PM   #1150
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Harry, the dipstick governor, as you say, is from NC, not SC. SC's current governor is firearms AND Constitution friendly.
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