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Old September 23, 2011, 07:26 AM   #1101
Aguila Blanca
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I could find it in my heart to not like Mr. Andre Howard very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Howard
Unfortunately, Mr. Dodson with his allegation is a pain in the a--. Now, my understanding now is it will be impossible now that he will be able to substantiate anything directly because that evidence is gone. I want you to know that. It don't exist. Not that one. You understand me?
This is from the transcript of his own recording with Hope McAllister. What I'm seeing in that statement is that he tampered with evidence. Does that mean he destroyed the 4473 that belonged to the gun (or guns) that killed the BP agent? Or maybe he destroyed the 4473 that went with the third "mystery" weapon that was not mentioned by the gummint?

This whole thing just stinks worse and worse the more it's exposed to light and air.
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Old September 23, 2011, 09:24 AM   #1102
Bartholomew Roberts
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Howard didn't sell the third weapon because as the tapes note that weapon is out of Dallas. So he can't have tampered with any evidence relating to it.

Of course it does raise the question that if an FBI informant is buying these weapons with taxpayer money and Phoenix ATF is the sole agency to let guns walk; why is there a rifle from Dallas in the mix? Why would this cartel be buying weapons from Dallas when they are getting such wonderful cooperation from Phoenix?
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:47 AM   #1103
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Andre Howard (Lone Wolf Trading) is a strange man. He acts like he's got a vested interest in protecting the agents involved, and makes all these leading questions couched as outrage at the investigators and informants.

I don't have clarity on his motivation yet, but it seems like he knows he is being recorded and he's trying to entrap the agent or at least seem like he is 'on the team'. His animosity toward Grassley, etc, is atypical of a gun dealer's politics. Weird.
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:57 AM   #1104
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It sounds like the guy was in CYA mode and was trying to glean as much info from the lower echelon as he could. As to protecting them, he likely realized that they were just the grunts who were acting on directives from above their pay grade. Of course, that excuse didn't work at Nuremberg; and it likely won't work in this instance either.
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Old September 23, 2011, 01:24 PM   #1105
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Quote:
I don't have clarity on his motivation yet, but it seems like he knows he is being recorded
OF COURSE HE KNEW HE WAS BEING RECORDED!!! He made the recording!

He said what he had to say to not only glean information but to get the person he was recording to make grievous mistakes. He wanted, also, to get the person to admit that they were encouraging the sales of the guns to the criminals that would later get them in the hands of murderous lifeforms!

But those emails Al Norris posted links to are enuff to prove much!

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Old September 23, 2011, 05:02 PM   #1106
maestro pistolero
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Interesting, then, that is was the government that leaked the recording.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; September 24, 2011 at 12:17 AM.
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Old September 23, 2011, 05:14 PM   #1107
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maestro, I ain't sure who leaked it or who all had a copy... But I think he was just making sure that the guns he sold that were found at Agent Terry's murder scene would be linked to the government operation and that he hadn't intentionally violated the law nor sold them on his own accord.

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Old September 23, 2011, 05:18 PM   #1108
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Sure does keep everyone from gettin' caught in a big ol' fib.
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Old September 23, 2011, 05:28 PM   #1109
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Quote:
Now, my understanding now is it will be impossible now that he will be able to substantiate anything directly because that evidence is gone. I want you to know that. It don't exist. Not that one. You understand me?
To me it reads like a pointed attempt to get an agent to admit on tape that he had asked for whatever evidence to disappear. Not asking the shop owner to explain, sort of sums it up for me.
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Old September 23, 2011, 09:53 PM   #1110
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At 29 minutes, this interview with Katie Pavlich (Townhall.com) and Mathew Boyle (Daily Caller) by NRA's Cam Edwards is much longer than most.

While Katie Pavlich will neither confirm nor deny that she has actually seen it, she reports that there is a circulating white paper at the DOJ that calls for the firing of over 400 ATF personnel and distributing their authority to other agencies within the DOJ.

The whole video is good but, This Is A Bombshell, folks!

If true, this is the Obama administration, once again, going around the Congress to get done whatever it wants when the Congress won't play ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec667...&feature=feedu
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Old September 23, 2011, 10:41 PM   #1111
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The BATFE has a long history of very public failures.

Jay Donyns has been appearing on shows with Vince Cefalu.

What is Jay's involvement is in this if any it was reported on one interview that he was a whistleblower in this case.

But anyway, it just reminded me of another controversial failure of the ATF when they tried to do an undercover operation into the Hell's Angels and build a RICO case.

After a year-long investigation and millions of dollars, in the end they had zero cases go to trial, and 8 cases plea-bargained down almost to nothing and those for drug possession.

I've said before that their law enforcement duties could be done more effectively and more efficiently by the FBI and this is just the latest proof.

The entire agency should be disbanded.
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:02 PM   #1112
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In Post # 1094, csmsss wrote:

Al, I think the larger question is...why is Issa being left on an island with all of this? Why has none of the House or Senate Republican leadership so much as taken a sniff at any of it? They seem thoroughly frightened of taking on the WH over this.
-----------------------

His first question is something that one might find "interesting", to say the very least. BTW, the obvious and possibly incorrect answer is that they are "two-faced double-talkers"

By the way, respecting the rest of The Congress (House and Senate), if one were to ask "Are they any better“, I submit that the answer would be not really, looking at the following:

1. The ATF, re firearms enforcement or what passes therefore has a truly terrible record, one that likely would not pass muster in a Banana Republic Police State, this under administrations both Democratic as well as Republican.

2. Has The Congress ever seriously undertaken strongly checking the antics of the "ATF", or whatever it might have been called at some particular point in time? I submit that the answer is no.

3. So re Republican leadership being afraid to take on the WH, possibly that is the case, however I suspect that the following plays a large role in their inaction. They are as corrupt and rotten as is the management of the AFT.
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:05 PM   #1113
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Katie Pavlich says that there is a White Paper circulating in Washington that discusses abolishing ATF firing 450 agents.

Either Katie didn't explain it fully or she doesn't understand it herself but firing 450 agents doesn't abolish BATFE which has approximately 4500 employees.
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:11 PM   #1114
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A smoke screen in which to fire all the whistleblowers and suspected potential whistleblowers
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Old September 24, 2011, 12:43 AM   #1115
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbob
A smoke screen in which to fire all the whistleblowers and suspected potential whistleblowers
And transfer the people they want to protect into other agencies, whose acronyms don't include BATFE, so they can quietly slide under the radar and continue their nefarious activities under the relative anonymity of a different agency with a different acronym.
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Old September 24, 2011, 10:42 AM   #1116
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The more I listen to that video the more I just bemoan the total loss of objective unbiased reporting in this country.

It's like side A has their phalanx of biased reporters spinning the story their way and side B has their phalanx of reporters spinning the story their way...

Its so obvious to me that both Katie Pavlich and Matthew Boyle are very anti-Obama.

I don't know - maybe it's just a new honesty, there have been so so many reporters and anchors in the MSM over the last few decades that pretended to be neutral, objective and unbiased while they were subtly giving stories a certain tone to them...

I guess I fear that instead of being seen as legitimate reporters some of the people investigating this story are just going to be seen as hatchet men (and women), with a vendetta against the Obama administration and they lose legitimacy because of it.
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Old September 24, 2011, 10:57 AM   #1117
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
Its so obvious to me that both Katie Pavlich and Matthew Boyle are very anti-Obama.
Was the fact that they were on an NRA radio talk show the first clue? As an openly political, gun rights organization, that show at least isn't pretending to be unbiased. It's the 'fair and balanced' folks we have to watch and I don't just mean Fox; they are no further 'right' than the MSN, CNN etc. are left, IMO.
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Old September 24, 2011, 11:19 AM   #1118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C0untZer0
I guess I fear that instead of being seen as legitimate reporters some of the people investigating this story are just going to be seen as hatchet men (and women), with a vendetta against the Obama administration and they lose legitimacy because of it.
If an agenda destroys legitimacy, journalists have lacked legitimacy for a long, long time - it has only become blatant in the last few decades.
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Old September 24, 2011, 12:22 PM   #1119
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc70
If an agenda destroys legitimacy, journalists have lacked legitimacy for a long, long time - it has only become blatant in the last few decades.
True.

It has been a couple of decades (or more) since the time when editorializing was limited to the editorial page and the rest of the news was presented as "news" -- i.e. "Who, what, where, when, why and how."
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Old September 24, 2011, 03:04 PM   #1120
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Quote:
It has been a couple of decades (or more) since the time when editorializing was limited to the editorial page and the rest of the news was presented as "news" -- i.e. "Who, what, where, when, why and how."
I'm not so sure that such a time ever really existed in the first place. The media manipulating public opinion to fit their own agenda has a history dating back to Hearst and Pulitzer.
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Old September 24, 2011, 04:31 PM   #1121
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It's sort of recent however that the internet has overthrown the old media's monopoly on daily information. Which probobly accounts for some of the more outlandish behavior lately. They seem to be testing thier own relevance, and failing.
By omission....with this particular story. But it's still out there and getting louder.
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Old September 24, 2011, 05:15 PM   #1122
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Quote:
I'm not so sure that such a time ever really existed in the first place. The media manipulating public opinion to fit their own agenda has a history dating back to Hearst and Pulitzer.
It goes back a lot further than that. You should see some of the newspapers from the 19th century.
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Old September 24, 2011, 06:56 PM   #1123
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Quote:
It goes back a lot further than that. You should see some of the newspapers from the 19th century.
Yup

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Old September 24, 2011, 09:28 PM   #1124
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Research the term "Yellow Journalism". Came out a long time ago.

I am still wondering how high/big/foul this thing will be when/if it gets blown all the way open.
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Old September 24, 2011, 11:19 PM   #1125
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If I may be permitted to say this: if, after this much public airing, no serious changes come, then the republic is done. Period. Full Stop. End of Story.

Not that I trust our government, for which I work, farther than I can throw it. Which is to say, not at all.
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