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Old September 20, 2011, 10:27 PM   #1076
Al Norris
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Breaking news--Congressman Issa discards mainstream media for bloggers

Mike Vanerbough at Sipsy Street

Katie Pavlich at Town Hall confirms the call.

David Workman (Seattle Examiner)
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Old September 21, 2011, 02:04 AM   #1077
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Quote:
Fast and Furious was launched late in 2009. The Gulf, La Familia, and Sinaloa cartels also formed an alliance against Los Zetas late in 2009. Why not arms the cartel alliance to offset the rapidly growing power of Los Zetas? At worst, all of the cartels would be weakened fighting each other.
Seriously?! No, at worst the guns are used to kill Border Patrol, DEA, police and civilians, and maybe a couple of Zetas. Who armed the Zetas? Yes, the US government. We trained the Mexican special forces and then they realized they could use the training and weapons we provided to become the new cartel enforcement power. How's that een working for you?

Now the U S Govt gets the brilliant idea to arm the Sinaola cartel to fight the Zetas whom we trained and more or less equipped. So after this bloodbath, which criminal element do you suggest we equip to take on the Sinaola cartel?

I hope the FBI learned this lesson in regards to helping one mob supposedly fight another mob. You do not get less mob, you get one much bigger nastier mob. This is a failed strategy.

If you want to play games like that you have to have more control of the situation (leverage) and it helps if one of the parties has some morals. The cartels are ruthless thugs who could care less about any agreements they make.

There is a long history at every level of many governments in which politicians see an advantage TO THEMSELVES to make deals with organized crime. But the person on the street, the beat cop, the civilian, the low level crooks are the ones who pay the price.
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Old September 21, 2011, 02:51 AM   #1078
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The mainstream media really has sucked at investigating the story - some of it is how media has changed.

It used to be that these big news agencies had a large staff of talented and dedicated investigative reporters, but the Internet changed everything.

Some of it is probably bias and complacency. They were content to broadcast the occasional blurb that Issa, Grassley or some blogger turned up.

But I think this will mark a change in things. The large news agencies can't afford the loss of face. Some of them at least are going to to get serious about investigating and reporting the story and you'll start hearing reporters ask the hard questions on shows like "Meet the Press" and others. The questions about "who knew what and when?"

This also is looking more and more to me like it's moving toward the apointing of a special procescutor. I think politicians are loath to do that now - it's like the political version of using a 300 megaton thermo-nuclear war head to swat a mosquitto. But the facts keep making things look worse and worse. A federal agent was murdered and it's completely unthinkable to me that an agency dedicated to investigating crime and uncovering the truth would tamper with a crime scene and obscond with evidence. What happened to the third gun?

If you can't trust the FBI to investigate this - who can investigate it? it's like you have to create a new independent investigative task force.

it seems like only a special prosecutor would be able to really investigate it properly. The more evidence that comes out - the more it looks to me like its heading that way.

Last edited by C0untZer0; September 21, 2011 at 02:58 AM.
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Old September 21, 2011, 07:17 AM   #1079
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Well, the El Paso Times reports allegations that several high-ranking political officials (federal and state) are working for the FBI. The source admits his own ranch was used to smuggle drugs but claims the FBI asked him to do it.
http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_18924755

It seems like a fair question in any of these controversies is who exactly is working for whom?

Quote:
This also is looking more and more to me like it's moving toward the apointing of a special procescutor
Issa said in his call he will ask for a special prosecutor; however, since the Oversight Committee must stop its investigation once that happens and since the special prosecutor will be a DOJ appointee investigating his own agency, they want to continue investigating to make sure the Oversight Committee has enough info to make sure the special prosecutor does his job.
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Old September 21, 2011, 07:22 AM   #1080
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More from the audio tapes obtained by CBS News:

ATF 'Fast and Furious' secret audio recordings reveal concerns about whistleblower

Quote:
The gun dealer is Andre Howard, the agent is ATF Agent Hope MacAllister.


Dealer: He's (Dodson) more toxic than you realize. I can tell you cause I asked him. How much of this f-----g file did you release?

Agent: Mmmhm

Dealer: He said basically the underlying case file. I said okay, who'd you release it to? F-----g Patrick Leahy! Ok? Wasn't just Grassley it was Leahy alright? Leahy as we both know has adjourned this inquiry right now okay with no plans to reconvene it. So your people were successful on that end.

Agent: Right.
Leahy stopped investigating and the conclusion is "your people were successful" huh? Who are "your people" and what did they successfully do, I wonder?
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Old September 21, 2011, 07:55 AM   #1081
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No justification will ever surface, that is satisfactory, for what's been done. In fact, there's no reason to even look for one. Just establish the facts and prosecute.

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmen-dump-35...013656828.html
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:21 AM   #1082
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Based on the recent history....
Quote:
Just establish the facts and prosecute
this administration would spin the facts and promote the felons...
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Old September 21, 2011, 02:22 PM   #1083
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From Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...unner-scandal/

Andre Howard's attorney contends that Howard was recording Hope MacAllister in order to get evidence from her that the agency was letting the guns walk across the border. That, according to the lawyer, is why Howard used the language that's on the tapes.

Maybe so, maybe not - that's probably a debate for another time. But I think that it's been made clear that the gun sales to straw purchasers who would have been denied by the NICS were green-lit by the ATF. Because of that, this quote from the article is chilling to me:

Quote:
Howard made the tapes in March 2011 after a meeting he and his attorneys held with federal officials. In that meeting, Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley continued to insist the guns Lone Wolf sold were stopped and seized before reaching Mexico.

But ATF officials are quoted in a Washington Post article and the Spanish language daily La Opinion saying just the opposite -- blaming Lone Wolf for "selling guns to the cartels" with no mention that Howard was operating under the federal government's direction, encouragement and approval.
Ahh...the dealer is the bad guy. Of course.
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Old September 21, 2011, 07:34 PM   #1084
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Fox Ticker reporting that the Inspector General for the ATF improperly turned over evidence including tape recordings to ATF Agents who were under investigation. Checking for more info.
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Old September 21, 2011, 07:54 PM   #1085
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Quote:
Fox Ticker reporting that the Inspector General for the ATF improperly turned over evidence including tape recordings to ATF Agents who were under investigation. Checking for more info.
I read somewhere that the information was turned over to the U.S. Attorney's Office in AZ which originally handled the prosecutions before recusing itself. The IG did it because it was exculpatory (helpful to the defendant) and had to be turned over to the defendant under the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution. Assuming this is true, I have no problem with the IG doing so so long as it wasn't a facade to funnel sensitive information about the investigation to government employees being investigated.
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Old September 21, 2011, 08:28 PM   #1086
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The prosecution doesn't have to turn over exculpatory information to the defense until there is a crime identified, a defendant arrested, charged, and indicted, and a trial pending. So far, nobody has been charged with any criminal act, so any talk about turning over exculpatory evidence to "the defense" is completely unrelated to the situation.

Basically, the IG gave the US Attorney's office the information so they could start building their cover story.
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:21 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris View Post
From the article:

Quote:
Among those who participated in Issa's news conference via phone were Mike Vanderboegh, David Codrea, Dave Workman, Bob Owens, and Katie Pavlich.
Sharyl Attkisson should have been on the list.
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:33 PM   #1088
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What KyJim wrote is true. Several defendants are awaiting trial in LA and San Diego. The information turned over was requested by the defense attorneys at discovery.

This was stated, by one of the defense attorneys, some months ago.

These criminal trials may be the one way that the current administration is brought to its knees. Remember, these trials are for criminal conduct and virtually everything will be public.
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Old September 21, 2011, 10:22 PM   #1089
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Quote:
Issa further stated that he did not wish to appoint a special prosecutor just yet due to the ongoing investigation, which has expanded far beyond what anyone had imagined when the scandal first came to light.
This is a quote from the article above.

Why would Issa make this statement? It's actually irrelevant whether he wants to appoint a special prosecutor or not, since as a committee chairman he has exactly the same authority as you or I or the guy down the street to appoint one.
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Old September 22, 2011, 04:23 AM   #1090
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The solution to the discovery problem should have been to remove the Phoenix office from the investigation much sooner, as in, as soon as it was apparent there was a conflict.

I'd say that would be about last March, a month or so before Eric Holder heard about gunwalking for the first time.
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Old September 22, 2011, 06:46 AM   #1091
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I'd say that would be about last March, a month or so before Eric Holder heard about gunwalking for the first time.
My personal opinion is that Eric Holder & the administration didn't "find out" about Fast & Furious - I'm quite certain they initiated it. There may never be evidence to support this, but I find the notion that a rogue field office of BATFE conjured all of this up on its own and only reluctantly revealed it later on to be rather unlikely. It's much more believable to me that an actively anti-gun White House set all of this in motion in order to administratively push a gun control agenda that it could not possibly get through Congress.
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Old September 22, 2011, 11:42 AM   #1092
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If it's true that F&F was to fan the flames of gun control, it is akin to an environmentalist poisoning groundwater in order to enact safe drinking water regulations.

The unfolding of this investigation seems very well timed. I'm hoping it reaches a peak around, say, early October, 2012.
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Old September 22, 2011, 06:09 PM   #1093
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From the two bloggers that brought this whole sordid mess to everyone's attention. A new startling development has been uncovered. First David Codrea's take on it:

ATF Counsel email to Melson on Gunwalker-Terry murder link preceded intimidation

Mike Vanderbough has his take on the story here.

[note: they are pretty much the same. If you read one, you won't see much difference in the other]

An explicit admission in this January 5, 2011 email is:
Quote:
In that regard, suspects may alter their behavior if they know that law enforcement is allowing certain firearms to 'walk' into Mexico.
So back in early Jan. the former acting Director and his counsel knew that the guns were being walked, despite all claims to the contrary.

Wonder what Issa will do with this?
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Old September 22, 2011, 07:36 PM   #1094
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Al, I think the larger question is...why is Issa being left on an island with all of this? Why has none of the House or Senate Republican leadership so much as taken a sniff at any of it? They seem thoroughly frightened of taking on the WH over this.
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Old September 22, 2011, 07:50 PM   #1095
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Al, I think the larger question is...why is Issa being left on an island with all of this? Why has none of the House or Senate Republican leadership so much as taken a sniff at any of it? They seem thoroughly frightened of taking on the WH over this.
Because obama and holder are black. They could get drunk on live national TV in the Rose Garden and murder a hooker, and the republicans wouldn't do anything about it. (And they won't seriously go after clinton or napolitano because they are women.) They are skeered of being called racist or sexist -- which is racist and sexist in and of itself.
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Old September 22, 2011, 09:03 PM   #1096
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And that, zxcvbob, is the answer to the silent and unasked question. Wish it weren't so, but I guess it is what it is.

I just listened to Sen. Grassley on the release of the tapes. If what he says is to be believed, the release by the IG was not only before any trials were started, they still aren't into the discovery stage.

So if the defense attorneys didn't do a discovery, then there can be only one reason for the release of the tapes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iMDufUMzl0
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Old September 22, 2011, 09:56 PM   #1097
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Is it just me or are we seriously getting close to the definition of a RICO crime? Maybe Im wrong??? But I dont see any difference between this and a maifa boss scheme... other than tax payer money was used to provide the weapons used to kill our agents.

Ok, so its worse than a RICO crime but I think it may now be approaching the actual legal definition...
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Old September 22, 2011, 10:59 PM   #1098
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I can think of no response to the posts above that would not violate board rules, so I will just say this - may God (should there be one) help this nation, for we certainly need it. We have no leaders. None.
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Old September 22, 2011, 11:18 PM   #1099
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Race and Politics, or might it be described as Racial Politics? Interesting, but then is there any reason at all for the citizenry to have faith in either Democratic or Republican "leadership"?
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Old September 23, 2011, 06:39 AM   #1100
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Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's death was "collateral damage" from gunwalking
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