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Old September 13, 2011, 11:00 PM   #1026
Eghad
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if Obama and the ATF are smart they are going to leave Mr. Howard alone if he has evidence that the ATF told him to do it. Mr. Howard will be entitled to review the ATFs records with regards to this matter if they take it to a civil or criminal court. Just the thing I imagine a few pro gun organizations are waiting for.
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Old September 13, 2011, 11:01 PM   #1027
alan
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KyJim wrote:

Trustworthy or not, they are not that insanely stupid. The last thing they want is for some gung-ho attorneys taking depositions and digging through their records in a civil case which is what would happen if they tried that. It would also be a public relations nightmare.
------------------------------------

What are you willing to bet re the stupidity, also spelled arrogance, of "the feds", who it appears have come to believe that they are untouchable?
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Old September 14, 2011, 08:04 PM   #1028
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What are you willing to bet re the stupidity, also spelled arrogance, of "the feds", who it appears have come to believe that they are untouchable?
I'm not stupid enough to bet real money on it.
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Old September 14, 2011, 08:45 PM   #1029
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Old September 14, 2011, 08:59 PM   #1030
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What about the current administration hasnt been a nightmare concerning policy, it seems almost like they are tone deaf to public sentiment or opinion on any given issue and tend to have a ear towards more specialized interest regardless of the fallout and consequences.

I dont think any level of public black-eye would prevent them from trying anything that seems to fit the need of the moment or supports a given tone that they seem to feel has to be met.

Without debating any of the issues or leaning any direction all I can say is that they seem to be deaf, dumb and blind on how the general public sees anything....
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Old September 15, 2011, 06:01 AM   #1031
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Rule Number 1: Deny all knowledge
Rule Number 2: When caught, see rule number 1.
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Old September 15, 2011, 06:27 AM   #1032
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Three More Murders Linked to Fast and Furious

The slow-motion train wreck that is Fast & Furious just keeps rolling along...

Quote:
"(CBS News) — Weapons linked to ATF’s controversial “Fast and Furious” operation have been tied to at least eight violent crimes in Mexico including three murders, four kidnappings and an attempted homicide.

According to a letter from U.S. Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich to Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), the disclosed incidents may be only a partial list of violent crimes linked to Fast and Furious weapons because “ATF has not conducted a comprehensive independent investigation.”

When added to the guns found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in the U.S., the newly-revealed murders in Mexico bring the total number of deaths linked to Fast and Furious to four.

According to the Justice Department letter:

One AK-47 type assault rifle purchased by a Fast and Furious suspect was recovered Nov. 14, 2009 in Atoyac de Alvarez, Mexico after the Mexican military rescued a kidnap victim.

On July 1, 2010, two AK-47 type assault rifles purchased by Fast and Furious suspects were recovered in Sonora, Mexico after a shootout between cartels. Two murders were reported in the incident using the weapons.

On July 26, 2010, a giant .50 caliber Barrett rifle purchased by a Fast and Furious suspect was recovered in Durango, Mexico after apparently having been fired. No further details of the incident were given.
http://weaselzippers.us/2011/09/14/t...us/#more-91044

I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
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Old September 15, 2011, 10:54 AM   #1033
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Rule Number 1: Deny all knowledge
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Rule Number 3: If Rule Number 2 doesn't work, blame the NRA.
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Old September 15, 2011, 11:04 AM   #1034
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I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
Not sensational enough yet for US media when compared to entertainment news, reality TV shows, economy, war, weather, politics, etc. Once a few US deaths show up in the headlines as a result of f&f, if they're of a "high enough" level of victim, there might be some press; but as you can see, if Federal agents deaths mean nothing, as they are expendable (I guess), a few Mexican citizens and/or cartel members deaths mean nothing (because they're outside of our jurisdiction and/or who cares?), just ignore the man behind the curtain.

The only person fired to date?

Pretty much sums things up, wouldn't you say?

All of which results in a few, common sense, "reasonable regulations" that in no way infringe on the RKBAs. Or so Uncle Sam tells us. Plato and Aristotle defined a tyrant as, "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics... against his own people as well as others". But then again, those two men did not live in 21st century Washington DC and words don't mean what you think they mean, they only mean what you're told they mean... right?
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Old September 15, 2011, 11:21 AM   #1035
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Re BGutzman's closing comments:



Without debating any of the issues or leaning any direction all I can say is that they seem to be deaf, dumb and blind on how the general public sees anything....
-----------------------------

If one seeks a word to describe the Obama administration, your close includes some that are, I submit, all to appropriate. Having said that, you might also consider "arrogant".

Baba Louie wrote:

Plato and Aristotle defined a tyrant as, "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics... against his own people as well as others".
-----------------------------

Sounds about right to me.

Rule #'s 1 and 2, see COWTOWNER's post, it appears, are at work here. Tom Servo, with his Rule # 3 seems to have hit the nail on the head though.
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Old September 15, 2011, 11:40 AM   #1036
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I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
It does not fit their template ..... and I think that was what this whole operation was about:creating the perception that Mexican Cartels were armed by American gun stores BECAUSE our gun laws were too lax.

Earth to Teh Feds: No Law, no matter how stringent, will work if it is not enforced....... and then it will only affect 2 classes of people: Those few lawbreakers you catch, and the Law Abiding.
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Old September 15, 2011, 11:48 AM   #1037
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Personally, my hope is that this doesn't peak too soon. The more it is drawn out, the worse it will eventually look. Having it come to a head around October 2012 would be best, IMO.
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Old September 15, 2011, 07:43 PM   #1038
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I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
If the current occupant of the White House were a Republican, you can bet your last nickel the story would lead all others 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
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Old September 15, 2011, 08:46 PM   #1039
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Actually the rules for criminals operating within the government are:
#1--deny everything - which is precisely what everyone in DoJ and the White House has been doing since this story first broke.
#2-- admit nothing - calling this a "mistake" or a "botched operation" is exactly that.
#3-- make counter accusations - we see this by the newly launched allegations of misconduct against Issa. Look who is making the charge. A bunch of lefto political hacks.

The very fact that a scandal this deep and far reaching is ignored by the MSM is evidence of how partisan they are. This current occupant of the White House is their messiah and they installed him. Now they will carry his water.

I suspect that Issa's strategy involves timing this to blow full open during the campaign next year. I pray this story destroys Obama's chances at a 2nd term.
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Old September 15, 2011, 11:51 PM   #1040
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2guns closed with:

I suspect that Issa's strategy involves timing this to blow full open during the campaign next year. I pray this story destroys Obama's chances at a 2nd term.
-----------------------------

I suspect that the economic bungling of Obama et al, combined with the lack of criminal prosecution, fraud is so actionable I believe, of the criminals of high finance might already have accomplished those ends, but we shall see.
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Old September 16, 2011, 12:55 AM   #1041
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I pray this story destroys Obama's chances at a 2nd term
Honestly, I'd bet the Oval Office is fairly well insulated.

Even then, this turned into something much bigger than politics when people started dying.
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Old September 16, 2011, 07:08 AM   #1042
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I pray this story destroys Obama's chances at a 2nd term.
He's already largely done that with his failed economic policies. (Which are basically copies of Bush policies.)
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Old September 16, 2011, 09:59 AM   #1043
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Regardless of if Issa has a "strategy", or what it might possibly be, the rate at which information is uncovered has to this point been largely out of his control.

The BATFE, DOJ and the WHite House have stonewalled this investigation and they have been dragging their feet from the beginning.

I am sure there are more revelations to come, but the BATFE, and DOJ has so far been 100% responsible for the timing of it.
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Old September 16, 2011, 10:14 AM   #1044
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Not sensational enough yet for US media when compared to entertainment news, reality TV shows, economy, war, weather, politics, etc. Once a few US deaths show up in the headlines as a result of f&f, if they're of a "high enough" level of victim, there might be some press...
+1. I think it boils down to this, cynical as it may be:

Most American news viewers don't pay attention when civilians die in criminal or terrorist violence outside the borders of the USA, Western Europe, Israel, and English-speaking former British colonies (Canada, Australia, etc). This applies even if a few of the dead are Americans and/or the US government is tangentially involved. The news stories have no staying power.

Unfortunately, Al Qaeda took this lesson to heart after Americans largely ignored the 1998 African embassy bombings. But I digress.
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Old September 17, 2011, 01:37 PM   #1045
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Quote:
I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
Quote:
If the current occupant of the White House were a Republican, you can bet your last nickel the story would lead all others 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Absolutely. Imagine if the events of Waco had occurred while Bush was president.
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Old September 17, 2011, 02:31 PM   #1046
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Absolutely. Imagine if the events of Waco had occurred while Bush was president.
It'd be like yelling "Free Beer!" during a Packers game at Lambeau Field. Oh, the humanity.
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Old September 17, 2011, 05:41 PM   #1047
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Imagine if the events of Waco had occurred while Bush was president.
Both Waco and Fast and Furious have been covered according to the 'script' that the majority of the media was most willing to believe under the circumstances of the time.

The media covered Waco extensively, generally from the perspective that a benevolent government was trying to rescue children from dangerous, gun-toting religious wackos. A minority of the media covered Waco as an intolerant government's deadly effort to prevent religious diversity.

Most of the media has portrayed Fast and Furious as a well-intentioned, but unfortunately flawed, effort to prove what was generally suspected ... that US gun dealers and gun shows were providing the flood of weapons for the drug cartels to turn Mexico into a killing zone. A minority of the media has covered Fast and Furious as a cynical government's effort to provide support for its political agenda.

Pick your perspective and you will either be please or angered by the reporting from the majority of the media, because they certainly have their biases.
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Old September 18, 2011, 11:29 AM   #1048
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Starting to wander folks - we don't need to do past conspiracy theories or other government actions unless informative to this case (not a rant in general about how they screwed up that incident). Thus, I took out some.
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Old September 18, 2011, 06:59 PM   #1049
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Glenn,

Good point. There is only one conspiracy -- this effort, Fast & Furious, to lend truth to the fiction that firearms are flowing to Mexico from the United States.

This has always been a fiction; and this administration wanted "evidence" that their thoroughly debunked claims were true. It backfired; and those conspirators are now stonewalling the Congress of the United States in an effort to cover up their misdeeds.

Perhaps it it time for everyone to go back and read POST #1.
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Old September 18, 2011, 09:56 PM   #1050
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The activities involved in Fast and Furious have slowly been revealed. What has not been fully revealed is the motivation for that activity.

Are we really to believe that the whole operation was to buttress some statistics supporting a political agenda that we dislike? Wouldn't it have been much easier to just manipulate the statistics (e.g. getting the Mexicans to scour their warehouses and submit a lot more serial numbers for tracing ... as was actually done)?

Or should we believe that ATF was really trying to catch gun smugglers further up the food chain? If so, which agency was ATF supposed to hand off surveillance to when the guns left the country? And how were those smugglers - outside the country - supposed to be apprehended and brought to justice?

I suspect a few more dots need to be connected before we really know what was happening and why.
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