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Old September 9, 2011, 02:01 PM   #1001
alloy
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So apparently there was a 3rd gun at the scene of Brian Terry's death which nobody wanted to come out.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...ene-covered-up
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:03 PM   #1002
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More Fast and Furious news... it appears there is a third firearm linked to Fast and Furious at the Terry murder scene that has previously been unreported.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1XTOWpyUG

Fox News is also reporting that Jaime Avila and Uriel Patino, the two men who purchased the weapon used in Terry's death, received $70,000 from an FBI informant for the purchases of these weapons. It offers the further comforting news that the informant was dropped as an informant for DEA and the U.S. Marshall service because he was a "stone cold killer." Apparently not such a killer that he couldn't be given $70,000 to buy guns with.
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:10 PM   #1003
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Cocaine cartels can't afford to buy thier own guns?
This is all too stupid, it had to come from high up.
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:56 PM   #1004
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Seems there i a very "juicy" statement made in the foxnews article

"It also confirms that the FBI was at least as culpable, and perhaps more culpable, than the ATF in the (Fast and Furious) scandal, and that there was some guiding hand above both these agencies (and the other agencies involved) coordinating the larger operation," Vanderboegh said.




http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...border-agents/
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Old September 9, 2011, 04:19 PM   #1005
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Cocaine cartels can't afford to buy thier own guns?
This is all too stupid, it had to come from high up.
Perhaps cartels would normally buy their guns much cheaper from Central or South America, unless of course they were provided US money specifically to buy US guns. I feel we are just scratching the service of how corrupt and high up this scandal goes. As hard as Obama and Napolitano harped specifically on the problem of US guns showing up in cartel hands, in light of how nonsensical it would be for cartels to do that, I do not dout there is much more involvement by WH, State, and HS.
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:31 PM   #1006
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Put it in perspective - we, the taxpayers, paid for the rifle that was used to murder Special Agent Terry. If there is anyone who isn't angry yet, that should do the trick.
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:34 PM   #1007
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Heres your hope and change (Fast and Felonious)
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:17 PM   #1008
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Put it in perspective - we, the taxpayers, paid for the rifle that was used to murder Special Agent Terry. If there is anyone who isn't angry yet, that should do the trick.
Well said. In addition, the criminal making the straw purchase probably resold it to the cartel and made a profit using our tax money.

"Mr. Obama, do you believe in using taxpayer money to buy "assault rifles" for drug dealers and distributors? Do you believe the American taxpayer is too stupid to understand this is what you directed be done?"
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Old September 9, 2011, 11:23 PM   #1009
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NWPilgrim wrote in part:

"Mr. Obama, do you believe in using taxpayer money to buy "assault rifles" for drug dealers and distributors? Do you believe the American taxpayer is too stupid to understand this is what you directed be done?"
-------------------------------------

I'm afraid that the answer to your question might well be YES, despite the very sad state of affairs that such would indicate..

Last edited by alan; September 10, 2011 at 11:59 AM.
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Old September 10, 2011, 11:58 AM   #1010
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Seen in 10 Sept. Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, page A-7, in National Briefs the following, a brief excerpt:

Probe goes to White House

Congressional investigators .... "formally asked the Obama administration Friday to turn over copies of all records involving three key White House national secutrity officials and the program (Operation Fast and Furious) ....".

Readers might find the full text of this short piece at the papers web site (www.post-gazette.com).

What leaves me curious is the following. How come it took so long for "congressional investigators to formally ask", but then I might smell smoke where therre is no fire, being inherently suspicious. Of course there might well be a considerable blaze in progress.
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Old September 10, 2011, 03:38 PM   #1011
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11253/1173655-84-0.stm

Here's the actual link to the page and the piece is about half way down...
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Old September 12, 2011, 02:02 PM   #1012
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The LA Times has a fairly sympathetic piece on Andre Howard, owner of Lone Wolf Firearms.

Quote:
In the fall of 2009, ATF agents installed a secret phone line and hidden cameras in a ceiling panel and wall at Andre Howard's Lone Wolf gun store. They gave him one basic instruction: Sell guns to every illegal purchaser who walks through the door.

For 15 months, Howard did as he was told. To customers with phony IDs or wads of cash he normally would have turned away, he sold pistols, rifles and semiautomatics. He was assured by the ATF that they would follow the guns
The one question I haven't seen asked is this: how much pressure did the ATF put on Mr. Howard to get him to agree to this? His reticence is obvious, and it doesn't seem like he was motivated by sheer greed.
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Old September 12, 2011, 05:02 PM   #1013
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The one question I haven't seen asked is this: how much pressure did the ATF put on Mr. Howard to get him to agree to this?
I obviously can't say for sure, but I suspect it didn't take a lot. This was the agency that regulated his business so he would be prone to act on any request they made. At the same time, he was making a boat load of money.
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:12 PM   #1014
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I agree, it wouldn't take much pressure. The guys that I'm pals with who own gun stores and pawn shops sweat bullets when the ATF comes around for a review. Oh, the agents are nice enough, but it's the crew that they answer to that gives the guys the willies.

I suppose that the boatload of money might be nice, but I also suspect that guys like Andre Howard also have a conscience and knowing that they essentially had to be part of an utterly irresponsible operation makes them sick to their stomachs.
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Old September 13, 2011, 08:07 AM   #1015
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I detect a change now in how the mainstream media is dealing with this story.

It seemed like they were reticent to pick up the story. But now, more and more major media outlets are reporting on it.

It seems like a story that is gaining momentum.
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Old September 13, 2011, 11:56 AM   #1016
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Re this business with Lone Wolf Firearms, it appears that the ATF are party to violation of existing federal gun laws, these being the same laws that they supposedly enforce, though I'm not really certain that "enforce" is the proper term to describe the antics of this mob.

Thinking on the above, I wonder regarding the ATF and DOJ concerning whether "antics" are a proper discription of what they are doing. possibly incompetence would be a better term, but then could one possibly describe Operation Fast and Furious as involving something so simple as the question of competence/incompetence, I think not.

At the risk of soundimng like a conspiracy theorist, I'm given to conclude that there absolutely, positively has to be a lot more than questions of mere competence/incompetence involved here, a whole lot more.

Last edited by alan; September 13, 2011 at 12:13 PM.
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Old September 13, 2011, 12:09 PM   #1017
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I detect a change now in how the mainstream media is dealing with this story. It seemed like they were reticent to pick up the story. But now, more and more major media outlets are reporting on it.
When you consider the severity of the allegation, this is big. Accusations of this scope require pretty serious proof.

When Al started this thread back in February, there had been rumors floating around for a couple of months already, but many of us wanted more evidence before we gave it much credence. Before then, we only had a couple of bloggers (who've been known to trade in alarmism) and some allegations on a forum made up of disgruntled former ATF employees.

But, it turns out that they were on to something. Agent Dodson came forward publicly, as did others. CBS news picked it up, and it became the subject of Congressional hearings. The early whistleblowers were right, and the more everybody found out, the worse the situation was revealed to be.

This isn't something anybody wants to cry wolf on, but at this point, the wolf already ate that annoying kid, and he's gnawing on the Mayor's ankle.
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Old September 13, 2011, 12:19 PM   #1018
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Tom Servo eded his latest post with the following:

"This isn't something anybody wants to cry wolf on, but at this point, the wolf already ate that annoying kid, and he's gnawing on the Mayor's ankle."
----------------------------

The foregoing strikes me as being that proverbial masterpiece of understatement sometimes mentioned, or possibly the very personification thereof.
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Old September 13, 2011, 03:33 PM   #1019
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Quote:
quote:
The one question I haven't seen asked is this: how much pressure did the ATF put on Mr. Howard to get him to agree to this?
I obviously can't say for sure, but I suspect it didn't take a lot. This was the agency that regulated his business so he would be prone to act on any request they made. At the same time, he was making a boat load of money.
This is how patsies are made.

All the Feds have to do is deny they had anything to do with the illegal acts. That probably can't work in this case, but you can bet that was an option before the operation came unraveled.
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Old September 13, 2011, 04:14 PM   #1020
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Quote:
This is how patsies are made.

All the Feds have to do is deny they had anything to do with the illegal acts. That probably can't work in this case, but you can bet that was an option before the operation came unraveled.
Theres no doubt in my mind that the BATFE planned on doing exactly that.
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Old September 13, 2011, 04:37 PM   #1021
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All the Feds have to do is deny they had anything to do with the illegal acts. That probably can't work in this case, but you can bet that was an option before the operation came unraveled.
That's what worried me at first: that nobody would listen to Howard's side of the story. Fortunately, he appears to have kept records of emails and meetings with agents and with the US Attorney.

If he hadn't, and if the ATF had some plausible deniability, Mr. Howard would have been scapegoated. As soon as the Terry gun was traced back to his shop, he'd have been "outed" as the guy who "supplied the cartels," and they'd have thrown him in prison.
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Old September 13, 2011, 06:21 PM   #1022
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When anybody enters you place of business and says I am here from the Government to help... you should keep records. If the government gives you bad answers they are not liable for it you are. It might mitigate things if you have record showing that the government gave you bad advice or gave approval for you to proceed even though it is against the law.
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Old September 13, 2011, 07:29 PM   #1023
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re pnac's quote, see below:

quote:
The one question I haven't seen asked is this: how much pressure did the ATF put on Mr. Howard to get him to agree to this?
I obviously can't say for sure, but I suspect it didn't take a lot. This was the agency that regulated his business so he would be prone to act on any request they made. At the same time, he was making a boat load of money.

--------------------------------

Concerning this "boatload" of money Mr. Howard made complying with the questionable "requests" of the ATF, have you ever heard of what I have at other times described as Theft Under Color Of Law, also known as Civil Asset Forfeiture?

It would not surprise me in the least to see the Obama DOJ bring Civil Asset Forfeiture proceedings against Mr. Howard's profits, they arising out of "criminal actions", never mind he was merely doing what the ATF requested.

Neither DOJ nor ATF, in my view, are the least trustworthy.
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Old September 13, 2011, 08:00 PM   #1024
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This isn't something anybody wants to cry wolf on, but at this point, the wolf already ate that annoying kid, and he's gnawing on the Mayor's ankle.
Speaking strictly as a wolf: it's rarely a bad idea to take wolves seriously.

Seriously: my initial skepticism was the result of wondering, "Could people really be that dumb?" I wondered that about the Watergate burglary quite a few years ago, too.
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Old September 13, 2011, 08:08 PM   #1025
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Quote:
It would not surprise me in the least to see the Obama DOJ bring Civil Asset Forfeiture proceedings against Mr. Howard's profits, they arising out of "criminal actions", never mind he was merely doing what the ATF requested.

Neither DOJ nor ATF, in my view, are the least trustworthy.
Trustworthy or not, they are not that insanely stupid. The last thing they want is for some gung-ho attorneys taking depositions and digging through their records in a civil case which is what would happen if they tried that. It would also be a public relations nightmare.
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