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Old September 7, 2011, 02:14 AM   #976
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Old September 7, 2011, 03:21 AM   #977
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I could be very wrong but I think a statute of limitations is for "bringing" the charge against someone... Once the charge is brought, it can take longer than the statute of limitation to prosecute this.

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Old September 7, 2011, 07:57 AM   #978
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More news on Fast and Furious:
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09...ver-gunwalker/

Apparently, the Phoenix USAO will no longer prosecute Fast and Furious related cases because they are so involved in it that they cannot credibly bring charges without creating conflict of interest problems. Federal prosecutors from Los Angeles and San Diego will take over these cases - raising the very small possibility of a criminal investigation of the Phoenix USAO by the LA and San Diego USAO.
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Old September 7, 2011, 10:53 AM   #979
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I think the prosecutions for straw purchases - the cases against the gun runners - are lost causes.

Maybe the motivation behind moving forward with prosecutions is some attempt to walk a line between saving face (getting succesful prosecutions) and not losing face (having the the brain trust behind this debacle put on the stand).
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Old September 7, 2011, 03:33 PM   #980
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They want the prosecutions to fizzle for a very good reason. The criminals have every reason to tell exactly what happened and who was involved in order to cut a deal. The ATF doesn't want that because the Agents would then turn around and tell who ordered the action instead of facing charges.
It's better for the ATF that most of the straw purchasers and smugglers never go to trial.
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Old September 7, 2011, 03:54 PM   #981
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"I believe the hidden agenda behind Fast & Furious was to provide data that Mexican drug cartels were being armed with weapons originating in America.

"That data could then be used to argue for stricter gun control laws."

c0untzer0,
These latest revelation of guns walked within U.S. borders and ending up in the hands of the criminal element here is more of what would further that very argument. In addition to that, arming violent criminal gangs inside our own borders can have a effect on those of us who live here. By this action, American gun owners and police are being undermined in their efforts to deal with violent crime.

The argument for more gun control could go something like this:
Young inner city kids are being killed due to the easy access to firearms. Therefore we need to enact stricter gun control.

Combine that with the "river of iron" flowing into Mexico from U.S. gun shops lie and you have a powerful and emotionally packed argument to restrict the rights of Americans even further.

Get it?
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Old September 7, 2011, 04:41 PM   #982
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My apologies if this website has already been referenced. It seems to do a good job of lumping all the info together from Project Gunrunner, Fast&Furious, Castaway and whatever the ATF Charlie Foxtrot in Indiana is called. Hmmm ... Project Charlie Foxtrot ... hmmm ... it has a nice ring to it!

http://www.waronguns.blogspot.com/
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Old September 7, 2011, 06:01 PM   #983
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I think it is entirely possible that the Indiana operation and maybe some others that we are just hearing about are cheap imitation rip-offs of Project Gun Walker and Operation Fast and Furious. I can just see some guys from ATF getting together for their semi-annual in-house training sessions. When it comes time to tell what's going on in each district office, the guys from Arizona brag about this really neat proactive investigation they have going. So, the guys in Indiana (and maybe in Georgia, too) decide that's a good way to get some props for their districts and start their own version of Gun Walker. I could be wrong. It's happened before.

Quote:
In addition to that, arming violent criminal gangs inside our own borders can have a effect on those of us who live here.
Frankly, I don't think violent criminals in this country have any difficulty whatsoever in getting guns.
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Old September 7, 2011, 06:10 PM   #984
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Quote:
Apparently, the Phoenix USAO will no longer prosecute Fast and Furious related cases because they are so involved in it that they cannot credibly bring charges without creating conflict of interest problems.
As the linked article indicates, this doesn't end the problems in prosecuting alleged offenders. The new prosecutors have to provide exculpatory information to defendants and they are generally charged with knowledge of other agents of the federal government if the others are in the investigative loop. I'm not sure how this will work in reality since the AZ U.S. Attorney's Office is likely to be non-cooperative and the Justice Department itself is in damage control.
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Old September 7, 2011, 06:31 PM   #985
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Quote:
Young inner city kids are being killed due to the easy access to firearms.
This is basically what the new police superintendant of Chicago said in one of his first speeches.

He said "we can't arrest our way out of this problem."

Which is another way of blaming Chicago's crime problems on forces outside of his control. He also said that young people of color were killing each other and initmated that there was a conspiracy to get guns into the hands of young people in the inner city.

I'll admit that there are some people who think this way, but a conspiracy on the part of BATFE to get guns into the hands of domestic criminals doesn't make much sense to me. Criminals have managed to get guns no matter what and it doesn't seem to me that they need any help from the BATFE in that regard.

I think if we were somehow able to completely cutoff their supply of weapons originating in the states, I would expect guns to start being smuggled from Mexico into the U.S.
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Old September 7, 2011, 08:34 PM   #986
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Via the NRA's Facebook thingy:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7867LD20110907

"Attorney General Eric Holder seeks distance from gun sting"
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Old September 7, 2011, 08:38 PM   #987
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Quote:
"Attorney General Eric Holder seeks distance from gun sting"
YA THINK???
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Old September 7, 2011, 08:49 PM   #988
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I'll admit that there are some people who think this way, but a conspiracy on the part of BATFE to get guns into the hands of domestic criminals doesn't make much sense to me. Criminals have managed to get guns no matter what and it doesn't seem to me that they need any help from the BATFE in that regard.

The conspiracy was dreamed up by political operatives much higher than ATF. The ATF were merely used as tools to implement the plan. This demonstrates how willing to please the hand that feeds this federal agency...How willing they are to curry favor with their master. Which is, of course, further evidence of how corrupt an agency they truly are.

This conspiracy makes perfect sense if the goal is to go "under the radar" to attain an agenda of undermining the 2nd Amendment protection of our right to keep and bear arms. This conspiracy would have the direct effect of many citizens crying out for government to do something. Hegelian theory = create a problem - offer the solution to the problem you created - problem solved.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:06 AM   #989
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The conspiracy to "walk" guns into Mexico originated in the office of the BATFE in AZ with the concurrence of the local federal prosecutor. Bureaucrats and political appointees in DC concurred with the operation. When good BATFE agents resisted they were threatened and shouted down.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:44 AM   #990
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Quote:
a conspiracy on the part of BATFE to get guns into the hands of domestic criminals doesn't make much sense to me.
If someone had told me a year ago that ATFE was deliberately letting firearms across the border into drug lord hands, I wouldn't have believed it. After all the revelations under oath in Congressional committee, I am about ready to believe anything foul about the higher ups in that agency and DoJ.
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Old September 8, 2011, 11:22 AM   #991
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BTW - Holders words tell me that people high in the DOJ did know about it but they don't think it can be proved (yet)

Quote:
"The notion that somehow or other that this thing reaches into the upper levels of the Justice Department is something that, at this point, I don't think is supported by the facts,"
If the knowledge and tacit approval of it didn't reach into the upper levels he would have said:

Quote:
"The notion that somehow or other that this thing reaches into the upper levels of the Justice Department is FALSE, and the facts will prove it."
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Old September 8, 2011, 01:15 PM   #992
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They are very busy making sure any connection to the upper level does not see the light of day.
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Old September 8, 2011, 03:31 PM   #993
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If someone had told me a year ago that ATFE was deliberately letting firearms across the border into drug lord hands, I wouldn't have believed it.
I suppose some guns went across the border, but they just as likely went wherever dope goes...into the cities of the Mayors, would be as likely as Mexico. In any case, letting purchases be made in Phoenix or El Paso....is arming the cartels here. Doubtful anyone will be surprised if they show up in domestic incidents in Detroit, or Chicago.

Oh well, here a cartel, there a cartel...we'll trace 'em if they ever show up again. Hoping to trace them in the future....is nothing more than arming cartels now. Matter of perspective I guess.

Evidently it will reach into the White House with the Restrepo revelations(Nat'l Security Council's, Latin American Expert)
Quote:
Operation Gunwalker, the rogue ATF operation to arm Mexico's cartels, extends now to three White House officials. A bell goes off with the one named Dan Restrepo.
http://impeachobamatoday.blogspot.co...repo-most.html
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...Gunrunner-.htm
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Old September 8, 2011, 07:29 PM   #994
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Thanks to the ATF more deaths are from a Mexican national with ATF guns .This at the IHOP shooting !!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...a-crime-scene/
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Old September 8, 2011, 09:30 PM   #995
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Mete, I'm not seeing a reference to the Carson shooting in that article.
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Old September 8, 2011, 11:05 PM   #996
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Sorry Tom , I got my shootings confused .Now I wonder if the Carson incident will be shown to be the same ??
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Old September 9, 2011, 12:48 AM   #997
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I wonder if the Carson incident will be shown to be the same?
From what I've read so far, the rifle used in that shooting was a Norinco, purchased from a dealer who's been out of business for awhile. Seems doubtful. In fact, some media outlets are griping about how hard it is to trace guns under such circumstances.
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Old September 9, 2011, 05:42 AM   #998
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Haven't heard the breakdown of these 11 violent crime scenes, but Agent Terry would be plus one. It's just a matter of time. The going to Mexico claim is wishful thinking or justification...cause really...who knows where a buyer will take a gun.


http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...lent_us_crimes
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:56 AM   #999
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More crimes from the guns:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/63068.html
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Old September 9, 2011, 11:33 AM   #1000
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Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if the Carson incident will be shown to be the same?

From what I've read so far, the rifle used in that shooting was a Norinco, purchased from a dealer who's been out of business for awhile. Seems doubtful. In fact, some media outlets are griping about how hard it is to trace guns under such circumstances.
It is still possible. Norinco AK's have not been available new in the U.S. since the 1990's ('97 IIRC) when they were banned from importation under 925d(3) by the ATF under the Clinton Administration. The only records that the importer or distributor would have of such a rifle would be the FFL to where the rifle was originally shipped. As you noted, that FFL seems to be out of business now but the ATF should still have his 4473's in Washington.

Now, if the IHOP shooter was the original purchaser of the rifle, then it's pretty much guaranteed not to be a F&F gun since it would have been purchased at least a decade before that operation started. However, even with the 4473's, they could only ascertain to whom the rifle was originally sold. Assuming that the IHOP shooter was not the original owner of the rifle, it is entirely possible that the original owner or some other owner in between sold said rifle to or through an FFL involved in F&F. If that's the case, it's not at all impossible that the IHOP shooter's rifle is a F&F gun since AK's, Norincos in particular, seem to be well liked by Mexican drug cartels (I seem to recall ATF busting an operation to smuggle some Mak 90's into Mexico through California a couple years ago).

Really, it shouldn't be particularly difficult to find out since the FFL's involved in F&F and Project Gunrunner before it are known. Since the IHOP shooter's rifle was recovered, presumably with the serial number intact, it would simply be a matter of examining the 4473's of F&F FFL's and looking for a match. Not to sound like my tinfoil hat is on too tight or anything, but the fact that ATF hasn't yet been able to say that the IHOP shooter's rifle wasn't a F&F gun seems a bit suspicious to me.
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