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Old August 25, 2011, 05:53 AM   #901
CowTowner
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This has the potential to be as explosive as Watergate.
But only if the media and our elected officials keep the pressure on.
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Old August 28, 2011, 09:40 AM   #902
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I'm not saying it would happen, but couldn't these people be prosecuted in 2013 if Obama loses the election?
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Old August 28, 2011, 10:49 AM   #903
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Expect the President to pardon everyone at the last minute.

They could be prosecuted right now if the media did their jobs instead of being cheerleaders.
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Old August 28, 2011, 11:34 AM   #904
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At this level of government, CYA is an art form, and anyone that has risen (sunk?) to it has to be a master.

The quality of Watergate that has always most impressed me is not that the burglary took place, and not that the cover-up took place, but that the scandal survived at all and managed to bring the administration down.

I am glad that F&F/Gunwalker seems to be gaining momentum, but aside from writing my representative (which I have, twice) urging his support for Issa's investigation, I'm just waiting to see whether it can bag anything, not what (who?).
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Old August 28, 2011, 01:39 PM   #905
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That's the thing, Dan, nobody who is responsible can be punished by anything than having the person who appointed them fail of re-election, and that doesn't ensure they will lose their jobs, since DoJ is at the core of this rotten apple express. I have to wonder if Congressmen and women who voted to defund them in punishment would suddenly find themselves on terrorist watch lists and such.
I have no faith left.
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Old August 28, 2011, 01:43 PM   #906
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They could be prosecuted right now if the media did their jobs instead of being cheerleaders.
The problem is not the media. Fact is most congressmen could care less about Operation Fast and Furious. Project Gunrunner began in 2006. Most folks never heard of it until Operation Fast and Furious went viral. We have no idea what kinds of shenanigans took place previously. The fact that Project Gunrunner got underway on their watch speaks very loudly about motives of the previous administration.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/
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Old August 28, 2011, 01:47 PM   #907
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thallub, your premise is flawed. Under Gunrunner, the straw purchasers were arrested.

When it morphed into Fast and Furious, the straw purchasers were facilitated, the theory being that they would lead ATF agents to bigger fish. Only problem was, ATF didn't have the ability to track the weapons or straw purchasers...

But no, you can't impugn the previous administration over the program that started in 2006. The character of the operation changed after the changing of the guard.
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Old August 28, 2011, 02:15 PM   #908
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Expect the President to pardon everyone at the last minute.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't there have to at least be an indictment before someone can be pardoned? If people are prosecuted for F&F after Obama is no longer in office, I wouldn't think there would be a thing he could do about it.
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Old August 28, 2011, 02:29 PM   #909
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The fact that Project Gunrunner got underway on their watch speaks very loudly about motives of the previous administration.
It does no such thing. Let's say I open a clinic for teen alcohol abusers. After I move on, the new director, in a desperate move to raise awareness about teen alcoholism, starts throwing keg parties for the kids.

Do those keg parties speak loudly about my leadership?
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Old August 28, 2011, 03:53 PM   #910
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Even if the president pardons those responsible, nothing says that Mexico can't issue warrants for their arrest given the very real damage it has done in Mexico.

That would put a big kink in any travel plans when first they have to make sure that the country they are visiting doesn't have an extradition treaty with Mexico. Doing a basic Google search reveals that most of the major countries do have such treaties, including Canada.
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Old August 28, 2011, 04:12 PM   #911
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't there have to at least be an indictment before someone can be pardoned?
No. Remember that Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon as one of his first orders of business and Nixon was never indicted.
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Old August 28, 2011, 06:25 PM   #912
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Under Gunrunner, the straw purchasers were arrested.
Only a few were actually arrested. Unfortunately, most received a lenient sentence, consisting largely of probation. It's supposed to be ten years in prison, but if that's not being enforced, the law has little deterrent value.
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Old August 30, 2011, 12:29 PM   #913
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CBS News is reporting that Melson is gone. He has been moved to a position of Senior Advisor on Forensic Science in the Office of Legal Programs (DoJ). The same report also says that Dennis Burke, the U.S. Attorney in Phoenix and a key Fast and Furious player has resigned effective immediately. His accomplice and AUSA, Emory Hurley is also being moved to a position in DOJ's Civil Division.

CBS reports that Todd Jones out of Minnesota will replace Melson.

All in all, some interesting developments today. Makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes.
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Old August 30, 2011, 12:54 PM   #914
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This just brings them directly under the thumb of thr doj. Easier to control i would think. Until the people behind this end up with long stays in prison justice will not be served
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Old August 30, 2011, 01:13 PM   #915
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All in all, some interesting developments today. Makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes.
So at this point, who's still standing? Mark Chait?

Melson, McMahon, USAO prosecutor Emory Hurley, Newell, and Voth have all been transferred and/or promoted. Burke is the only one to resign.
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Old August 30, 2011, 01:26 PM   #916
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Makes me wonder what is going on behind the scenes.
CYA ...... that's what.

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Old August 30, 2011, 01:37 PM   #917
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I have serious doubts on just how effective Todd Jones will be as interim director. He's still cleaning up a big mess in Minnesota. His management style in this sort of thing is very hands on, so I wonder which job is going to suffer the most?

On the other hand, Kenneth Melson was a train wreck...or at least he was train wrecked. It would be difficult to do worse (and I'm not asking them to try!)
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Old August 30, 2011, 01:39 PM   #918
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the scandal survived at all and managed to bring the administration down.
Woodward and Bernstein from the Washington Post newspaper are the ones that made sure it did not die.

The Post is a generally liberal paper, and there was no love lost for Richard Nixon.

They pretty much hated him.
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Old August 30, 2011, 02:36 PM   #919
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According to the article I just read on the "reassignments," praise was lavished on all the players who left or were reassigned. This one, in particular, caught my eye:

Quote:
Holder also praised Burke’s work, and said his office’s “quick response to the devastating shootings in January that claimed the lives of several people and critically injured Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was crucial in arresting and charging the alleged shooter.”
The BS can't get any more blatant than that. Burke's office had exactly ZERO to do with arresting the shooter. The facts are that the shooter never left the scene, because he was tackled, disarmed and restrained by a bunch of untrained civilians, Then the cops arrived to take custody. All Burke's office had to do was assign a rookie paralegal to fill out a charge sheet and file it.

But I'm sure Mr. Burke did a praiseworthy job of assigning the paralegal, and signing the charge sheet.
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Old August 30, 2011, 03:12 PM   #920
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So far the only thing most of this proves is if you want to get away with criminal activity you need to be in the ATF or the WH..
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Old August 30, 2011, 03:20 PM   #921
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/31/us...s.html?_r=1&hp

Low level positions.
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Old August 30, 2011, 04:31 PM   #922
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Low level positions.

Hmmm..... that they still have retained any position astounds me ...... that they are not "assuming the position" irks me......

If Joe Sixpack conspired to sell and smuggle ak-47's to Mexico, Joe Sixpack would be trying to plea bargain his way out of Club Fed.

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Old August 30, 2011, 04:58 PM   #923
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I was disappointed in NPR's coverage of the events today. NPR portrayed the problem with Fast and Furious as field agents that lacked proper supervision loosing track of some guns when the problem was that the field agents were told to let the guns go despite the field agents' objections. NPR also mentioned that the ATF lacked regulations it needed to effectively combat gun smuggling on the border when a big part of the problem is the DoJ refusing to prosecute straw buyers. It really sounded like NPR was reading a DoJ/ATF press release.
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Old August 30, 2011, 05:14 PM   #924
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This is why I want a government job.

With my job in the private sector - if I'm responsible for some collosal screwup that gets someone killed - I at least would get fired.
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Old August 30, 2011, 05:20 PM   #925
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Mr. Holder indirectly referred to the distraction of the controversy in his statement thanking Mr. Burke, commending “his decision to place the interests of the U.S. Attorney’s office above all else.”
Why would the interests of the Attorney's office be jeopardized at all if there was nothing to the allegations?
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