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Old August 11, 2011, 11:07 AM   #851
Hardcase
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I just read that article and popped in to post it. I'm glad you beat me to it because you expressed my sentiments better than I would have.

If this was a novel, I think that it would be reviewed poorly because nobody would believe that a federal prosecutor would act so cravenly.
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Old August 11, 2011, 03:30 PM   #852
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If the US Attorney is correct, let's just imagine for a moment...then doesn't that mean...the two crimes have nothing to do with each other...and how then or why did ATF ever undertake F+F if the crimes of their targets were only illegal purchases of firearms? The rest of what the bad guys do has nothing to do with the firearms they bought?

Am I missing something? It's a bummer being dumb.
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Old August 11, 2011, 04:03 PM   #853
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What it means (from the Fed's point of view) is that there is no direct connection between Avila's purchase of the firearms and Agent Terry's murder.

To me, though, that seems like wearing an industrial set of blinders. And, again to me, it sounds like Mr. Burke is giving "proximate" a whole new definition.

What a mess. What a tragic, unnecessary mess.
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Old August 11, 2011, 11:02 PM   #854
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So, if I steal a firearm and then transfer it to another person who uses it to kill someone I will not be charged as an accessory before the fact in that murder case? After all, the victim's family would not be "directly or proximally harmed" by my having stolen the firearms in the first place so they would also have no civil case against me as well. Sounds like precedent.
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Old August 11, 2011, 11:23 PM   #855
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So, if I steal a firearm and then transfer it to another person who uses it to kill someone I will not be charged as an accessory before the fact in that murder case? After all, the victim's family would not be "directly or proximally harmed" by my having stolen the firearms in the first place so they would also have no civil case against me as well. Sounds like precedent.
That depends... Are you a US Attorney, or a federal LEO? If you are, you're probably safe. (if not, you're toast)
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Old August 12, 2011, 08:17 AM   #856
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Just when you think the actions of our government could not possibly be more dire or crass...
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Old August 12, 2011, 12:51 PM   #857
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Bartholomew Roberts wrote:


Join Date: June 12, 2000
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Posts: 4,438 In the roving clown car that has become Fast & Furious, we have a new development. The Terry family had petitioned to come before the court as "crime victims" in the case against Jaime Avila, the straw purchaser who purchased the AK47s used in the death of Agent Terry.

Typically, this motion might be opposed by a defense attorney for his client's sake. However, in this case, the U.S. Attorney (Emory Hurley and Dennis Burke of Fast and Furious fame) is opposing the petition on the grounds that the family was "not directly or proximally harmed" by the illegal purchase of the AK.

Apparently, the US Attorney's office in Arizona is more concerned about the possible legal consequences of acknowledging that the AK47s sold to Avila may have been used to kill Terry than they are about the PR nightmare of telling a murdered federal agent's family that they were not "directly or proximally harmed" by the crime.
-----------------------------
Re the position taken by DOJ, see above, given that the person murdered was a "family member", how is it that the feds can claim that the family was "not directly or proximally harmed" by the illegal purchase of the AK.

I'm not a person trained in the law, however given that 2 + 2 still equal 4, they still do, don't they, how can this contention be even remotely tenable?
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Old August 12, 2011, 01:19 PM   #858
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In the roving clown car that has become Fast & Furious, we have a new development. The Terry family had petitioned to come before the court as "crime victims" in the case against Jaime Avila, the straw purchaser who purchased the AK47s used in the death of Agent Terry.
Whisky Tango Foxtrot... Over?

That is all I can say...

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Old August 12, 2011, 02:14 PM   #859
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Wash Times has published claims the CIA and Gov at large has fears of a sucessful Zetas coup against Calderone.
Just reads like BS to me, arm Calderone above board with munitions and forces if that's the fear.
Or....do it all sideways to watch how far it all goes, fun and games and bodies I suppose for those that like that sort of reckless intrique.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...t-and-furious/
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Old August 12, 2011, 04:50 PM   #860
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That might, on the other hand, explain the apparent involvement of the CIA in all of this. The CIA is fairly well renowned for taking the long way around when it comes to manipulating the political environments of countries we take an interest in.
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Old August 12, 2011, 05:28 PM   #861
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The CIA is fairly well renowned for taking the long way around when it comes to manipulating the political environments of countries we take an interest in.
Just look at Cuba if not sure of this...

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Old August 12, 2011, 05:47 PM   #862
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According to the Wasington Times article mentioned above, the CIA wanted to arm the Sinaloa Cartel, which has ties to the Mexican military, as a counter-balance to the Zetas who threaten the political structure. Hmmm. Seems like it would have been more efficient simply to sell some guns to the military and let the Sinaloas steal them. Wait, didn't they do that, too?
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Old August 12, 2011, 06:13 PM   #863
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we should not shrug off the activities of any of our federal agencies that broke the law on the Sinaloa’s - and thus the Mexican government’s - behalf.

Evidently the Sinaloa cartel needed guns and giving them to the Mexi military or government would have been doing the same thing, but I suppose for tracing purposes it's better to give them straight to the thugs because we can't have Mexican military weapons showing up in the cartels or at the crime scenes and any time you can cut out a middle man the system's efficiency should improve. Besides...we needed Calderone to address our congress with a straight face.

It's the Twilight Zone....but they'll get it all figured out.
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Old August 12, 2011, 07:33 PM   #864
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The CIA is fairly well renowned for taking the long way around when it comes to manipulating the political environments of countries we take an interest in.
and they are also fairly well renowned for those manipulations coming back to bite us in the butt.
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Old August 15, 2011, 04:40 PM   #865
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Among other interesting points Operation Fast and Furious, attributed to The Obama Administration is mentioned in the following by former U.S. Senator Bob Smith. People here might find reading the following worth while.

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/gun-ri...m_medium=email
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Old August 16, 2011, 08:53 AM   #866
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I try very hard not be cynical, but I can't help but say that this article from the LA Times shows some of the fallout from Gunrunner:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7676977.story

Promotions all around, boys!
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Old August 16, 2011, 10:23 AM   #867
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Clearly, the most venal and incompetent are the most useful and get promoted. If anyone has another explanation I am open to it.
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Old August 16, 2011, 10:45 AM   #868
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"[I]n a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" Peter's Principle (Dr. Laurence J. Peter - The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong (1969)).
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:12 PM   #869
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It is a blatant slap in the face to Representative Issa and the committee, plus every law abiding gun owner who gets hit with the splatter from ATFE's criminal activities. Or it could be that they expect to be terminated, and want to be at the highest pay rate to cash out unused leave balances and retirement.
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:33 PM   #870
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I hate to be a conspiracy theorist but honestly - the first thing I thought of when I read this is that these guys have knowledge that is valuable - like incriminating information about the President's involvement with this or Eric Holder's involvement...

That's the first thing I thought of. They can't fire these guys because they might recollect a meeting or a memo from Holder or Obama that would put those guys in a very bad light.

I think they're being taken care of for their silence.
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:41 PM   #871
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"[I]n a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" Peter's Principle (Dr. Laurence J. Peter - The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong (1969)).
I think, at best, we may be looking at "The Dilbert Principle". Scott Adams, the creator of "Dilbert" said: "I wrote The Dilbert Principle around the concept that in many cases the least competent, least smart people are promoted, simply because they’re the ones you don’t want doing actual work. You want them ordering the doughnuts and yelling at people for not doing their assignments—you know, the easy work. Your heart surgeons and your computer programmers—your smart people—aren’t in management. That principle was literally happening everywhere".

At worst, the more corrupt you are, the higher you rise in government. The second scenario seems more plausible.
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:59 PM   #872
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I hate to be a conspiracy theorist but honestly - the first thing I thought of when I read this is that these guys have knowledge that is valuable - like incriminating information about the President's involvement with this or Eric Holder's involvement...
If "Gunrunner" and "Fast & Furious" are not conspiracies, what are they? More "coincidences", right?
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Old August 16, 2011, 02:11 PM   #873
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If "Gunrunner" and "Fast & Furious" are not conspiracies, what are they? More "coincidences", right?
A new federal entitlement program for criminals by aspiring criminals.... Sad state of affairs....
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Old August 16, 2011, 05:33 PM   #874
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I hate to be a conspiracy theorist but honestly - the first thing I thought of when I read this is that these guys have knowledge that is valuable - like incriminating information about the President's involvement with this or Eric Holder's involvement.
That could very well be part of it.

It could also be that the Bureau has trouble finding qualified recruits to fill the vacuum. The ATF is about the bottom of the totem pole in terms of wages, benefits, and quality of work environment. The good recruits are going to work for the DEA or FBI. As such, moving Newell and Voth to other departments keeps them in the organization as assets, all while shielding them from further blowback.

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I think, at best, we may be looking at "The Dilbert Principle."
Or that I frequently joke that, if I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't be in management.
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Old August 16, 2011, 08:22 PM   #875
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I think they're being taken care of for their silence.
I'm afraid so. I've said quite some while the only thing government consistently does well is look after the interests of government.
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