The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 5, 2011, 04:46 PM   #826
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,680
Quote:
Project Gunrunner’s objective is to deny Mexican drug cartels the tools of the trade
By supplying them with over 2,000 such tools which we have no realistic way to track in Mexico... It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 5, 2011, 08:40 PM   #827
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,336
Quote:
It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell.
Oceania has always been at war with Europa.

Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

The logic reminds me of Gibbon's summation of the late Roman empire: the whole system was a tax-collecting apparatus that collected taxes to support the tax-collecting apparatus.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 5, 2011, 10:59 PM   #828
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Quote:
Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.
Tom called it right...... Nothing like our tax dollars sending guns directly to the criminals to stop non existant flow of guns from FFL dealers.....
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 6, 2011, 07:14 PM   #829
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
BGutzman Quote:
Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

Tom called it right...... Nothing like our tax dollars sending guns directly to the criminals to stop non existant flow of guns from FFL dealers.....

Yesterday 09:40 PM
Tom Servo Quote:
It would sound very 1984-ish in its doublespeak except even Orwell probably thought that plot line was too far fetched to sell.

Oceania has always been at war with Europa.

Basically, the ATF is helping stem the flow of contraband weapons southwards by sending contraband weapons southward. Makes perfect sense.

The logic reminds me of Gibbon's summation of the late Roman empire: the whole system was a tax-collecting apparatus that collected taxes to support the tax-collecting apparatus.
--------------------------------------

How does "your tax dollars at work" ring in the view or hearing of readers here.

It strikes me that the hides of Obama and Holder et al aught to be nailed to the back fence, and allowed to dry. Of course, nothing of the sort will happen, sovereign immunity of some such foolishness will be trotted out, still the idea strikes me as interesting, even in the philosophical or rhetorical sense.
alan is offline  
Old August 6, 2011, 07:45 PM   #830
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 1,882
Holder is not immune to the law, and will get nailed one day. The President will be given a pass as long as something with his signature on it doesn't show up.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old August 6, 2011, 09:29 PM   #831
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 26, 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,649
Quote:
The President will be given a pass as long as something with his signature on it doesn't show up.
Even then, he'd probably receive only the mildest, lightest public criticism.
__________________
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.
Standing Wolf is offline  
Old August 6, 2011, 10:40 PM   #832
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,405
Holder won't be held accountable. Suitable scapegoats will be sacrificed on the altar of Congress, and life in Washington will continue, unabated and unchecked by the supposed "checks and balances" built into the system. The problem with our system of government is that it was created by men who were fundamentally both ethical and idealistic. I don't think, either individually or collectively, they had the capacity to envision how corrupted our form of government could become while still nominally remaining within its Constitutional framework.

It's all in buying the right judges ...

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 7, 2011 at 10:35 PM.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 6, 2011, 11:00 PM   #833
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
It never ceases to amaze me that the government can break laws at will with little regard..... Crimes that you and I would get life sentences for are commited with alarming regularity.....

Sad state of affairs..
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 6, 2011, 11:25 PM   #834
pnac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 329
Quote:
It's all in buying the right judges ...
Or paying their salaries.
__________________
In my hour of darkness
In my time of need
Oh Lord grant me vision
Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons
pnac is offline  
Old August 7, 2011, 06:57 AM   #835
Uncle Buck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,561
In the testimony I watched, the ATF representative (Mr. Newel?) said they wanted to identify the drug kingpins. But they admitted that Mexico knew who the drug kingpins were (Or maybe I miss-understood the response to the question posed by the senator).


Also, once the kingpin was "Identified" what could the US do with the information? I am under the impression that Mexico and the United States do not have an extradition treaty. Am I wrong on this also?

I have always taught that honesty is the best policy and to respect authority. But when people like this abuse that trust and their authority, it sure makes me and others look like guppies.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.
Uncle Buck is offline  
Old August 7, 2011, 08:40 AM   #836
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,093
What we have here is a US government operation that was expanded on until it got totally out of control. Fast and Furious was dreamed up by career BATFE bureaucrats in AZ. They sold the project to their bosses in DC and the US Justice Dep't.

Project Gunrunner got underway in 2006. Operation Fast and Furious began in 2009 with the blessing of the local federal prosecutor. So far as can be determined no guns were "walked" across the border until 2009.

Everyone who cares should read the entire 60 page report prepared by the congressional staff for US Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf
thallub is offline  
Old August 7, 2011, 08:57 AM   #837
Don H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2000
Location: SLC,Utah
Posts: 2,705
Uncle Buck,

The U.S. and Mexico have had a number of extradition treaties since at least the 1860's. Most recently, Mexican drug lord Benjamin Arrellano Felix (sp?) was extradited to the U.S. this spring. If I remember correctly, the current treaty will not allow the extradition of Mexican citizens if they will be facing the death penalty, something Mexico abolished several years ago.

The difficulty, of course, of extraditing a Mexican citizen who has not physically entered the U.S. to commit a crime is having enough evidence to show that he is the cause of crimes in the U.S. and those crimes were commited at his behest.
Don H is offline  
Old August 7, 2011, 10:17 AM   #838
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,680
Quote:
Also, once the kingpin was "Identified" what could the US do with the information?
It is actually worse than that. Several of the people ATF targeted were FBI and DEA informants. They weren't ever going to be charged or extradited because they were already working for us. See the testimony from the second set of hearings for more details.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 7, 2011, 01:11 PM   #839
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
BGutzman wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me that the government can break laws at will with little regard..... Crimes that you and I would get life sentences for are commited with alarming regularity.....

Sad state of affairs..
__________________
Freedom is legislated away one bill at a time.......

----------------------

Does Do As We Say, Not As We Do not have a certain ring?
alan is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 07:54 AM   #840
Uncle Buck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,561
Thanks Don H. I was looking further in to this and found basically what you have written. But I still feel either way (whether they could extradite a kingpin or not) that the Mexican Government knows who is who and if they caught the person, would they really risk sending them to the US? I think the Mexican Law Enforcement officials would rather end it there on the spot than have to risk prison breaks and retaliation.

Bartholomew Roberts That is a very good point. Just like the gun shop who was indicted and then when their attorney pointed out they were following ATF requests. Charges dropped.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.
Uncle Buck is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 08:43 AM   #841
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Quote:
I think the Mexican Law Enforcement officials would rather end it there on the spot than have to risk prison breaks and retaliation.
No matter what the LE officials want, if they don't kill the feller on the street, the best way to assure they serve a sentence is to extradite to the USA... If they imprison them there, they just escape...

Remember, they have hundreds of millions in cash if not billions at their disposal to spend on any elaborate scheme they choose to thwart the security measures of a prison not much more secure than a nice home with a fence around it.

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 03:01 PM   #842
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,336
News comes today that Newell will not be assigned to be the ATF's attache to Mexico. The Mexican government is now handling Fast and Furious as a criminal investigation, and

Quote:
Concern had surfaced recently within ATF that the Mexican government might arrest Newell if he came down there as the attache.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 03:02 PM   #843
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
Everyone who cares should read the entire 60 page report prepared by the congressional staff for US Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley:

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf
Thanks for that link. It was an alternating astonishing and horrifying read.
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 03:31 PM   #844
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
This was a doomed project from the start the only objectives that appear to me are as follows.

1. Create murder and mayhem on both sides of the border for political purposes.
2. Equip the drug Cartels at tax payer expense with zero possibility of tracing it to any big players ever, it simply wasnt traceable period.
3. Use the resulting chaos to impose further gun regulations, possibly try to outlaw FFLs... This is my guess but it seems spot on....
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 04:31 PM   #845
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...INAL_FINAL.pdf

The above link doesn't work, at least not for me.

Clicking on the link brings the following error message.

Not Found
The requested URL was not found on this server.

Is there a way around this?
alan is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 04:36 PM   #846
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,186
http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/FINAL_FINAL.pdf
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is online now  
Old August 8, 2011, 06:14 PM   #847
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,088
The link in post #836 from which the link was quoted works.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old August 8, 2011, 09:02 PM   #848
HarrySchell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2007
Location: South CA
Posts: 551
If Newell is so clean, such a great LEO and general savant, a real teller of truth at any cost...I thought the Mexicans would like that. Or, if some of that recitation is optimistic, perhaps he could be useful.

ATF is afraid they would put the guy in prison? The Mexicans have higher standards than ATF or Holder, I guess, or it would be very useful to make an example of this paticular gringo for short-term political gain.

I am sure there are people in Mexico who look at it either way. I am so sorry for the former, and hope the latter reap what they sow, fall upon their own poison, and leave the field.
__________________
Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will.
— Mark Twain
HarrySchell is online now  
Old August 8, 2011, 09:51 PM   #849
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
maestro pistolero wrote:

The link in post #836 from which the link was quoted works.

-----------------------

Looks like it does, thank you.
alan is offline  
Old August 11, 2011, 09:22 AM   #850
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,680
In the roving clown car that has become Fast & Furious, we have a new development. The Terry family had petitioned to come before the court as "crime victims" in the case against Jaime Avila, the straw purchaser who purchased the AK47s used in the death of Agent Terry.

Typically, this motion might be opposed by a defense attorney for his client's sake. However, in this case, the U.S. Attorney (Emory Hurley and Dennis Burke of Fast and Furious fame) is opposing the petition on the grounds that the family was "not directly or proximally harmed" by the illegal purchase of the AK.

Apparently, the US Attorney's office in Arizona is more concerned about the possible legal consequences of acknowledging that the AK47s sold to Avila may have been used to kill Terry than they are about the PR nightmare of telling a murdered federal agent's family that they were not "directly or proximally harmed" by the crime.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Reply

Tags
atf , fast and furious

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15380 seconds with 8 queries