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Old July 26, 2011, 01:40 PM   #751
CowTowner
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I loved the Three Stooges references. And it appears that no quarter will be afforded to anyone on the committee's hit list. Even the antis on the panel were careful about what they said and asked. the fire is getting turned up under the Fast and Furious kettle.
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Old July 26, 2011, 01:53 PM   #752
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I loved the Three Stooges references.
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Old July 26, 2011, 02:30 PM   #753
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Maybe they should be looking for Eric instead.
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Old July 26, 2011, 10:15 PM   #754
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Did anyone get a chance to review that .pdf released by Issa this morning? I've been too busy today to read it and was hoping someone could give me the highlights.
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Old July 27, 2011, 07:23 AM   #755
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I suppose "White House National Security Director for North America Kevin O'Reilly" needs to be asked why he either didn't inform his colleages in the WH, or how the WH reacted when he did....back in Sept '10.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...in;contentBody
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Old July 27, 2011, 08:26 AM   #756
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I guess Issa's trip to Mexico paid off... check out this report from Sharyl Attkisson:

"The Oversight Committee has used internal documents and information to showing where Fast and Furious weapons have shown up and been used in Mexico. It reveals more recoveries than Department of Justice has disclosed to the Committee in official answers ... and yet it's still only a partial picture.
The Department of Justice had no comment on that aspect of the report."

As many times as the Congressional Oversight Committee has nailed DOJ for withholding relevant information, you think they would start getting a foggy idea that overproduction would be a better approach than withholding.

And it looks like the testimony has now set up a new possible fall-guy for Fast and Furious:

"But according to ATF witnesses, on March 5, 2010 ATF intelligence analysts told ATF and Justice Department leadership (including Main Justice Trial Attorney Joe Cooley) that straw firearms purchases in Fast and Furious had exceeded 1,000 and the weapons were ending up in Mexico. When concerns were raised, one witness present quoted Cooley as saying the movement of so many guns to Mexico was "an acceptable practice." The Justice Department had no comment on that."

And in other fun news in the summary of yesterday's hearings by CBS, Lanny Breuer continues to deny direct knowledge of Fast and Furious, despite his name on the wiretap approvals and despite testimony from at least 3 ATF agents that he knew about and was involved in the program. Breuer is saying that the wiretap applications are "narrow" in scope and that an Assistant AG would normally review those. If I were Joe Cooley, I'd be dialing up some lawyers right now.
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Old July 27, 2011, 08:56 AM   #757
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Who was the black lady who said that everyone was in the pocket of the NRA? I was only able to listen to snippets of her conversation and missed what her name was.

Thoroughly enjoyed the parts I could watch yesterday.
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Old July 27, 2011, 09:42 AM   #758
Bartholomew Roberts
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Who was the black lady who said that everyone was in the pocket of the NRA?
That would be Rep. Eleanor Norton, the non-voting Congressional Representative for the District of Columbia. She is a member of the House Oversight Committee as well. She is also the same one who helpfully suggested that there should be a law making straw purchasing illegal yesterday.
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Old July 27, 2011, 11:29 AM   #759
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So here it is, FINALLY, the real reason behind Fast & Furious is revealed.

So they could get more power & more money through seizures. It’s ALWAYS about the money & the power, ALWAYS!!

And the GALL of these people, to stand there & declare that they need these powers in order to stop the trafficking, when THEY are the ones who are responsible for the trafficking to begin with!!!

Liberal Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.

This is pure Twilight Zone!!!

Link to the article:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/amid...fast-and-furio


.
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Old July 27, 2011, 12:36 PM   #760
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“Today’s criminal organizations are increasingly sophisticated. They know no borders,” Holder said. “They threaten the stability of our financial system, and the promise of a competitive marketplace. And their operations are putting far too many American businesses, government institutions, consumers, and citizens at risk.”
Sounds like a spot-on description of the federal government!
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Old July 27, 2011, 12:52 PM   #761
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The Administration has placed an increased emphasis on stemming these outbound flows, dedicating additional law enforcement, investigative, and prosecution resources to targeting TOC, such as deploying additional U.S. Customs and Border Protection ‘outbound teams’ to our borders, screening outbound rail and vehicle traffic for weapons
If they dedicate any more law enforcement resources to this issue, I'm afraid there won't be any guns left on the shelves to funnel.
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Old July 27, 2011, 01:33 PM   #762
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Liberal Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.
It's called the Hegelian Dialectic, thesis-antithesis-synthesis or problem-reaction-solution. In this case ATF creates the problem - guns from US reaching Mexican drug cartels and gangs. Wait for the reaction- "OMG the gangs are getting firearms, save us!". Gov, as a solution, passes more gun laws and destroys more rights to make you safer.

There's nothing liberal about it, this is the way populations have been manipulated to act against their own interests throughout history. The only reason many are seeing it now is because it's so obvious and because their own ox is being gored. At least they're waking up.
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Old July 27, 2011, 01:40 PM   #763
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Quote:
Liberal Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.

It's called the Hegelian Dialectic, thesis-antithesis-synthesis or problem-reaction-solution. In this case ATF creates the problem - guns from US reaching Mexican drug cartels and gangs. Wait for the reaction- "OMG the gangs are getting firearms, save us!". Gov, as a solution, passes more gun laws and destroys more rights to make you safer.

There's nothing liberal about it, this is the way populations have been manipulated to act against their own interests throughout history. The only reason many are seeing it now is because it's so obvious and because their own ox is being gored. At least they're waking up.

Good point, good point; I should have said TYRANNY Playbook 101
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Old July 27, 2011, 01:46 PM   #764
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No problem, frontsight, we're on the same page.
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Old July 27, 2011, 02:38 PM   #765
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That would be Rep. Eleanor Norton, the non-voting Congressional Representative for the District of Columbia. She is a member of the House Oversight Committee as well. She is also the same one who helpfully suggested that there should be a law making straw purchasing illegal yesterday.
She never fails to figure out a good solution to a problem.
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Old July 27, 2011, 09:02 PM   #766
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She is also the same one who helpfully suggested that there should be a law making straw purchasing illegal yesterday.
What an idea! I never, ever thought of that. We should all lobby our senators to...oh, wait. Already a law. Right. Ahem.
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Old July 27, 2011, 11:54 PM   #767
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It's becoming clearer by the day that the people responsible for this are guilty of heinous crimes, and those who support them are guilty of partisan depravity.
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Old July 28, 2011, 12:26 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by FrontSight View Post
Liberal Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.
OOPS! What pnac said.
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Last edited by jimpeel; July 28, 2011 at 12:30 AM. Reason: pnac beat me to the Hegelian Dialectic description
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Old July 28, 2011, 02:21 AM   #769
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Obama issues State of Emergency July 25, 2011

Obama issues new "State of Emergency" 2011-07-25 which as I read it, could possibly result in the seizure of all assets of innocent gun store owners whose young employee was "tricked" by a DoJ official into a skillfully worded "straw purchase" (out of state buyer - buying a gun illegal in his community but legal where the gun store is located).

Note: The State of Emergency is very broad and cuts across transnational criminals in many countries, but the Zetas cartels are included and that would likely be the focus of any action against innocent gun store owners.

http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of...united-nations

“Today’s criminal organizations are increasingly sophisticated. They know no borders,” Holder said. “They threaten the stability of our financial system, and the promise of a competitive marketplace. And their operations are putting far too many American businesses, government institutions, consumers, and citizens at risk.” -- Attorney General Eric Holder

Be careful... Playbook 101: When desiring power, create a fake problem so that you can offer a solution that gives you that power you desire.

- BATFE creates Problem: Too many guns flowing to Mexican Cartels endangering Mexico and U.S. Law Enforcement and Civilians
- Solution: More Restrictive Gun Control Laws
- Power: Reduces 2nd Amendment Rights

Supporting Quote: "We're working on Gun Control "Under the Radar" - Obama to Sara Brady
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rol-radar.html

New State of Emergency Declaration of July 25, 2011 seems to give U.S. Law Enforcement the right to seize assets of any Gun Shop suspected of selling to straw purchasers. Note: DoJ has been sending fake straw purchasers around the U.S. for many months now gathering a list of gun stores to close down when the law permits. The ruse has been to trick the gun store clerk into breaking the law unknowingly by carefully worded phrases (purchases that look legal, but in fact may not be).

WildAlaska reported that gun store owners have been "shopped" by undercover DoJ officials trying to purchase guns legal in their state, but illegal in NYC, presenting themselves as hunters who want a gun to use locally. (I can't find the thread, maybe somebody else can post it below). In each case, the gun stores have been smart enough to ask what the "buyer" was going to do with the gun after hunting if he lives in NYC. In all cases, the "buyer" did not want to say, implying that he would take it back to NYC where it is illegal. If sold, such a purchase could under the new State of Emergency cause the gun shop to forfeit their entire business. Any gun store employees unfamiliar with NYC laws could think he was legally selling a designated gun for hunting locally to an out of state purchaser (legal in many states), but illegal if the buyer returns the gun to NYC. So the gun store owner could lose his store and face a felony for the innocent actions of his employee. Under this logic, every employee of every gun store must know and abide by every local law of every community jurisdiction. Probably an impossible task.
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Old July 28, 2011, 05:47 AM   #770
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Obama issues new "State of Emergency" 2011-07-25 which as I read it, could possibly result in the seizure of all assets of innocent gun store owners whose young employee was "tricked" by a DoJ official into a skillfully worded "straw purchase" (out of state buyer - buying a gun illegal in his community but legal where the gun store is located).
The Executive Order you linked to bans the entry into the US of aliens subject to a UN travel ban. How does that support the assertion you made above?
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Old July 28, 2011, 08:51 AM   #771
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The Executive Order you linked to bans the entry into the US of aliens subject to a UN travel ban. How does that support the assertion you made above?
I suspect he meant to link to statements/reports about combating "transnational organized crime."

Strategy: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa..._July_2011.pdf

Factsheet: http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-of...rganized-crime

I can't read either as an attempt to seize all assets of gun store owners (which would also run into constitutional problems). However, there is an interesting statement made at p. 7 of the Strategy (pdf p. 15) on strategies:
Quote:
Weapons Trafficking. Criminal networks and illicit arms dealers also play important roles in the black markets from which terrorists and drug traffickers procure some of their weapons. As detailed in the 2010 UNODC report The Globalization of Crime, “The value of the documented global authorized trade in firearms has been estimated at approximately $1.58 billion in 2006, with unrecorded but licit transactions making up another $100 million or so. The most commonly cited estimate for the size of the illicit market is 10% - 20% of the licit market.” According to the head of UNODC, these “illicit arms fuel the violence that undermines security, development and justice” worldwide. U.S. Federal law enforcement agencies have intercepted large numbers of weapons or related items being smuggled to China, Russia, Mexico, the Philippines, Somalia, Turkmenistan, and Yemen in the last year alone
I'm not sure this strategy would include running a Gunrunner/Fast and Furious type operation. Just interesting.
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Old July 28, 2011, 11:28 AM   #772
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Mods: Please delete this entire post if someone has previously posted this link. Congressional staff report for Sen. Grassley and Rep. Issa, dated 26 July, 11:

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM192_atf_report.html

See page 8 for "fast and furious" guns recovered. Yep, some were .50 Barretts.
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Old July 28, 2011, 11:32 AM   #773
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"I can't read either as an attempt to seize all assets of gun store owners (which would also run into constitutional problems). However, there is an interesting statement made at p. 7 of the Strategy (pdf p. 15) on strategies:"
The Executive Order provides for the seizure of assets of individuals, forms, organizations or governments cooperating with the accused trans-national crime organizations.

Under the current DoJ leadership, I can see this order used as cover to seize the assets of Gun Shops where straw purchases sourced guns found to be in the possession of the Zetas Cartel (one of the trans-national crime organizations listed).
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Old July 28, 2011, 01:16 PM   #774
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The Executive Order provides for the seizure of assets of individuals, forms, organizations or governments cooperating with the accused trans-national crime organizations.

Under the current DoJ leadership, I can see this order used as cover to seize the assets of Gun Shops where straw purchases sourced guns found to be in the possession of the Zetas Cartel (one of the trans-national crime organizations listed).
Holder is interested in action against enemies defined by his boss, and it appears if the desired action is plausible under even a tortured interpretation of the law, they will do it and, maybe, say "sorry" if they lose in court. Or ignore the court ruling, as Ray Nagin has done about firearms seized in his city during the Katrina storm. If there are fines to be paid, the taxpayer will pony it up.

And Bush was an "imperial president"...
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Old July 28, 2011, 11:30 PM   #775
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Bartholomew Roberts quoted and wrote in post 758:

"Who was the black lady who said that everyone was in the pocket of the NRA?"

That would be Rep. Eleanor Norton, the non-voting Congressional Representative for the District of Columbia. She is a member of the House Oversight Committee as well. She is also the same one who helpfully suggested that there should be a law making straw purchasing illegal yesterday.

---------------------------------

Possibly someone should tell the lady that "straw sales" are already illegal, correct me if I'm wrong on this point. Otherwise, re people being in someone else’s pocket, whose pocket is she in?

Re this Obama executive order, I will read it, haven't as yet, however respecting the possibilities mentioned in several posts, it strikes me that in the eyes of many people, if Obama swore that we, in the eastern time zone, North America were in the latter part of July, questions would be raised, the man has so little credibility, with so many people. It seems, by the way, that this situation is the result of significant effort by Mr. Obama.
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