The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 25, 2011, 04:06 PM   #726
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
If guns are being illegally exported....does DHS gain some measures of Patriot Act authority they don't have normally, that they currently consider important...enough to insure that guns are continually being exported, so they can retain that authority?

If a straw sale is allowed to proceed, does anyone gain access to store records they wouldn't normally have, or do they have that authority already...with no evidence of any straw purchase?

In other words, are perpetual straw purchases, followed by the supposed illegal exporting of same weapons, ancillary toward maintaining some continual effort, and that effort's required legal authority...rendering stories of drugs, felons, borders, murders etc. almost an undesirable, yet necessary side effect?

Has the long gun reporting act(and possibly more) been in effect much longer than anyone thought?
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla

Last edited by alloy; July 25, 2011 at 04:59 PM.
alloy is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 04:22 PM   #727
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,087
Quote:
However, according to court records reviewed by Fox News, two of the 20 defendants indicted in the Fast and Furious investigation have felony convictions and criminal backgrounds that experts say, at the very least, should have delayed them buying a single firearm. Instead, the duo bought dozens of guns on multiple occasions while federal officials watched on closed-circuit cameras.
Some folks at the ATF and FBI need to go to jail over this one.
thallub is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 04:58 PM   #728
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloy
In other words, are perpetual straw purchases and illegal exporting of weapons, ancillary toward maintaining some other effort and authority, rendering drugs, felons, borders, murder etc. almost a secondary issue?
You took the long way around the bush asking that question. What I think you're really asking is by exporting guns to cartels, is the gov't providing an "excuse" to broaden the powers of alphabet-soup agencies? And could those broader powers also be used against US citizens?

My answer is: Of course.
If DHS can claim exigent circumstances along the border due to higher levels of muder, kidnappings, shootings and general mayhem it could lead to expanded authority or new laws allowing them to seize people or property based on otherwise legal behavior.

We've already seen some of this with CBP (customs & border protection) claiming that they can seize your property if you try to cross the border with a "large sum" of cash. What defines large sum is nebulous and probably varies to allow "discretion" on the part of CBP agents. They could expand that authority to people travelling "near" the border (where near is also nebulous).

Even today, it doesn't take much to imagine a nightmare scene. Suppose three Americans of Hispanic heritage decide to drive from Brownsville over to New Mexico or Arizona for a 3-gun match. When authorities stop them and uncover the 9, 10 or 12 firearms and ammo in the vehicle, I doubt it will be end well. If DHS is involved, I doubt they'll see their guns returned without legal assistance and a lot of sweat and treasure expended.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 05:00 PM   #729
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
I edited my post again....sorry

I'm curious if the laws can be logically backed thru so that the end justifies the means.
Has the long gun reporting act(and possibly more) been in effect much longer than anyone thought?
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 05:12 PM   #730
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
If DHS can claim exigent circumstances along the border due to higher levels of muder, kidnappings, shootings and general mayhem it could lead to expanded authority or new laws allowing them to seize people or property based on otherwise legal behavior.
Ive never seen so many agencies, exhibit such clown shoe behavior, and everybody has a CYA card it seems. The FBI allowing sales to 2 bit felons?
Strange days I guess.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 05:17 PM   #731
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
BillCA....sorry, but I'm not sure what I'm asking because I don't know how these laws or the FFL business flows.

Quote:
by exporting guns to cartels, is the gov't providing an "excuse" to broaden the powers of alphabet-soup agencies? And could those broader powers also be used against US citizens?
But that's about it in a nutshell.

If a sale to a known or suspected felon is allowed to go thru, because it might be illegally exported, does one agency then have claim to usurp all the records of the other agency? For instance 4473s.

Could a comprehensive list be compiled over time under the umbrella of Nat Security?

As an aside, Todd Tiahrt was interviewed on Fox news a few days ago, he suggests Fast and Furious was designed to(among other things) aid in the repeal the Tiahrt amendment.

What would they do over there at ATF? Would they be needed anymore, I wonder.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla

Last edited by alloy; July 25, 2011 at 05:49 PM.
alloy is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 05:49 PM   #732
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,303
Quote:
If a straw sale is allowed to proceed, does anyone gain access to store records they wouldn't normally have, or do they have that authority already...with no evidence of any straw purchase?
Yep, the ATF does. They can initiate a trace for pretty much any reason.

However, there's little concern about access to 4473's being used as a registry. For the most part, the only time a gun is specifically reported to the ATF is in conjunction with a multiple-handgun sale form. Otherwise, the records are kept by the dealer. The very system dealers use makes it very hard to simply find John Smith's guns.

Dealers' books are organized by the date the gun was received. For example, the acquisition log will show something like this:

07/25/2011 / Glock / 19 / 9mm / RAB455 / Glock USA, Smyrna, Ga.
07/26/2011 / S&W / 686 / .357 / CEB123 / AcuSport, Bellefontaine, Oh.

When each gun is sold, the dealer fills out the customer's information in the "disposition" column. However, the books are organized by acquisition, so the only real way to audit them is by the date the guns were received.

Essentially, there's no quick way to look at the dealer's records and determine which guns John Smith bought. I'd have to go down the list, line by line, and depending on how long the dealer's been in business, that could be tens of thousands of entries.

And that assumes the dealer is still in business. If not, the books (and the forms) get boxed up and sent to an ATF warehouse, in which there are tens of millions of entries to consider. Assuming the ATF has a complete cache of those records, it's still a nightmare to track anything down because they're prohibited by both law and logistics from collating those records into any kind of database.

An de facto registry won't come from that infrastructure. It would have to entail a whole new reporting system, and even then, the registry would only be accurate from the date of inception. Guns bought before then wouldn't be in it.

Now, a new reporting requirement (like the one they tried in the border states) could force the registry of some weapons, but I think that could be proven to be a violation of the Tiahrt Amendment.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 05:53 PM   #733
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
Assuming the ATF has a complete cache of those records, it's still a nightmare to track anything down because they're prohibited by both law and logistics from collating those records into any kind of database.

An de facto registry won't come from that infrastructure. It would have to entail a whole new reporting system, and even then, the registry would only be accurate from the date of inception. Guns bought before then wouldn't be in it.

Now, a new reporting requirement (like the one they tried in the border states) could force the registry of some weapons, but I think that could be proven to be a violation of the Tiahrt Amendment.
Got it.
It's over my head but I see the pieces.
Thanks guys!
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 06:58 PM   #734
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Tom, I think the risk might be more profound than you are acknowledging. Yes, if one were manually searching the 4473's of individual mom and pop gun shops, it would be problematic to create a comprehensive registry of guns by owner.

But a list need not be comprehensive to be dangerous. And you can get pretty damn near comprehensive if you just go after the big shops that sell hundreds of firearms a month.

And you don't have to manually record these transactions if you copy the 4473's and pay some contract employees $12/hr to type each one into an Oracle database (in contravention of federal law, but it certainly doesn't appear that BATF is paying much attention to that these days!).

This has all the shape, form and function of a prototype - a pilot program that is being tested for eventual deployment nationwide. No, they can't compile a perfect list with this approach - but they can certainly cast a broad net.
csmsss is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 06:59 PM   #735
Don H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2000
Location: SLC,Utah
Posts: 2,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Essentially, there's no quick way to look at the dealer's records and determine which guns John Smith bought. I'd have to go down the list, line by line, and depending on how long the dealer's been in business, that could be tens of thousands of entries.
Tom, aren't dealers now allowed to keep electronic records that would allow a search on a field, thus making it much easier to find those firearms bought by a specific buyer?
Don H is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 07:29 PM   #736
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
type each one into an Oracle database~CSMSSS
Like etrace?
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla

Last edited by alloy; July 25, 2011 at 07:52 PM. Reason: spelling
alloy is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 07:36 PM   #737
2guns
Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2010
Posts: 45
csmsss said:
"And you don't have to manually record these transactions if you copy the 4473's and pay some contract employees $12/hr to type each one into an Oracle database (in contravention of federal law, but it certainly doesn't appear that BATF is paying much attention to that these days!).

"This has all the shape, form and function of a prototype - a pilot program that is being tested for eventual deployment nationwide. No, they can't compile a perfect list with this approach - but they can certainly cast a broad net."

I believe you are on to something here. This is an agency that has been notorious for playing fast and loose with the rules. ...er put less charitably, they violate the law as a standard way of doing business.

Nebulous practices, gray areas of the law, exigent circumstances, bend the rules to attain a desired result and on and on. I suspect that many folks, including members of this very forum have allowed themselves to believe that agents of government are acting with the best interests of the people in mind. Me? Not so much.

If this scandal does nothing else but open up the eyes of those willfully ignorant citizens then it will have served some positive purpose. That is at the minimum. I hope for greater results than that. To include; criminal prosecutions of those involved, jail sentences and loss of pension for those convicted of criminal wrong-doing, an end to the ATF (I'm sure I am dreaming), removal from office of Holder, no hope for re-election of Obama and eternal shame for many of his Chicago cronies. That list would be a nice start. What can I say? I think big.
2guns is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 08:50 PM   #738
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,303
Quote:
Tom, aren't dealers now allowed to keep electronic records that would allow a search on a field, thus making it much easier to find those firearms bought by a specific buyer?
They are, but they're in the minority. Sure, it would be possible to make a database of some sort, but it would be very incomplete.

As far as typing in hundreds of millions of 4473's, imagine the time and payroll. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it seems like a great deal of effort for a very meager result.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 09:07 PM   #739
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
Quote:
As far as typing in hundreds of millions of 4473's, imagine the time and payroll. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it seems like a great deal of effort for a very meager result.
There is a lot of software out in the world that could do much of this quickly and easily..... Certainly some portion of the forms would require human eyes but alot would not.
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 09:24 PM   #740
nazshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2008
Posts: 151
Someone needs to remind Faux News that long gun sales don't go through NICS.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
nazshooter is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 09:27 PM   #741
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,303
Quote:
Someone needs to remind Faux News that long gun sales don't go through NICS.
Yes they do.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old July 25, 2011, 09:31 PM   #742
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
As someone who is only in his mid 20's I must sit back and think this is what my parents experienced during Watergate. Mind you the media climate was already rather harsh towards Nixon, It is this type of once in a generation moment where such gross misconduct by the government comes to light. I think I just might be telling my kids about this in 15 or 20 years.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 05:24 AM   #743
Dead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: AoW Land, USA
Posts: 1,933
Foxnews has an article this morning detailing how top washington atf officials as well as others in washington knew of walked guns since atleast 2009 according to transcripts of meetings, as well as high level atf agents in houston la and other towns. I will believe the article and think it still goes deeper.

http://www.foxnews.mobi/#r_http%3A//...26pageNum%3D-1
__________________
Dead [Black Ops]
www.therallypoint.org
Dead is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 08:52 AM   #744
Micahweeks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: North Mississippi
Posts: 841
This was released by Senators Issa and Grassley a few moments ago.

http://1.usa.gov/pgDHg9

There is a lot of info there to sort through.
Micahweeks is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 09:13 AM   #745
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Hearing currently streaming from 10am-12

http://oversight.house.gov./
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 09:28 AM   #746
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Another dose is on live now...

http://oversight.house.gov/

Alloy whooped me in that race...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 09:39 AM   #747
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
WTH??? Did everyone lose stream signal?

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 10:32 AM   #748
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Word Of The Day...

SHELLACKING
As I watch...
I applaud the folks on the oversight committee. It seems I never gave this procedure due credit. I thought for sure some would be trying to "soften" the blows to the witness panel.

I am impressed!

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 11:29 AM   #749
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,303
While I'm still waiting on a transcript from the Melson interviews, there's a great deal of alarming, credible evidence here.

Quote:
From: Gillett, George T. Jr.
To: Newell, William D.
Cc: Voth, DavId J.
Sent: Thu Dec 17 13:27:49 2009

GS Voth and Mr. Leadmon are speaking on a regular basis, so the fines of communication are now the equivalent of the proverbial fire hose. During one of their conversations, Lorren told Voth that Ray Rowley received a briefing on the investigation this week and mentioned the possibility of needing to shut the investigation down due to the large number of guns that have already been trafficked. Therefore, I spoke with Ray Rowley today and explained that even though the Identified straw-purchasers bought approximately 175 guns last week alone, we have slowed down the FFl on future purchases and are obtaining intelligence directly related to this investigation from the current DEA wire tap. Ray did express some concern regarding the total number of guns that have been purchased by this straw-purchase scheme.
Carlos Canino, Acting ATF Attaché in Mexico, expressed similar thoughts to mine on the whole situation:

Quote:
You don't lose guns. You don't walk guns. You don't let guns get out of your sight. You have all these undercover techniques, all these safety measures in place so guns do not get out of your custody or control. I mean, I mean, you could follow, you could do a surveillance for 1,000 miles . . . either use planes, trackers, you use everything under the sun, but at the end of the day, those guns do not leave your control. At some point those guns do not get into the streets.
Quote:
Walking away from one, walking away from one gun when you know that that gun is going to be used in a crime when you, I mean, there is no, there was no gray area here guys. There was no gray area here. We knew that these guys were trafficking guns into Mexico. There is no gray area.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old July 26, 2011, 01:28 PM   #750
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,669
Can't wait to see the transcript for this; but it looks like Newell is getting roasted alive. And apparently Newel briefed Kevin O'Reilly (going on memory, may have mangled last name) with the National Security Council (i.e. White House) on Fast and Furious some time ago.

Apparently, the Committee has an email from Newell to O'Reilly with Newell saying "You didn't get this from me..." Wonder if Newell was surprised to learn that today?

I'm getting the idea that the Oversight Committee has quite a bit of its own information that DOJ is unaware of

Looks like McMahon is angling to be the designated fall guy, though how he is going to be the fall guy when people higher than him have already admitted knowledge of the program, I'm not real sure.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Reply

Tags
atf , fast and furious

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.36977 seconds with 8 queries