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Old March 11, 2011, 05:45 PM   #51
frick74
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Interesting, the O admin isn't sticking up for the citizen/spy in Pakistan claiming diplomatic immunity, so the precedent has been set for a non defense of US citizens in other countries already.

And, the article link posted mirrors my thoughts, in the derision the Mexican gov. for allowing mexican blood to flow for the benefit of our firearms investigation.

I find it unlikely that the ATF had Mexico's best interests in mind, when conducting this sting
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Old March 11, 2011, 11:15 PM   #52
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This should be interesting... apparently at least one Mexican politician is announcing he will ask the United States to extradite the ATF agents responsible for Fast and Furious to Mexico to stand charges
The US Embassy, oddly enough, released a statement today.

Quote:
The alleged transfer of arms to Mexican territory at this point is exactly that - an allegation.
...albeit one with some pretty substantial evidence.

Quote:
There is no contradiction between the statement of the Mexican government and the information provided by the United States concerning an operation that dismantled a major arms trafficking ring that has been called Fast and Furious. The operation took place on U.S. territory and arrested 20 defendants on January 25, 2011.
Considering the cost and scope of the operation, I wouldn't consider the arrest of a few low-level folk "dismantling a major arms ring."

In any case, the collateral damage will continue to be felt for years.
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Old March 18, 2011, 07:46 AM   #53
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25 ATF agents write a letter to the House Judiciary Committee detailing scandals involving Gunwalker, whistleblower retaliation, AND even more scandlas such as false testimony, willful disregard of statute, etc.

Even better? This letter was also sent to the Senate Judiciary Committee (Schumer, Pelosi and Boxer) TWO YEARS AGO.

Details here:
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/20...f_agents_w.php

It is so bad that ATF Deputy Director Edgar Domenech has even filed a whistleblower complaint against ATF. This is the second most powerful manager in the ATF filing a complaint against the agency he is supposed to manage.

When you read the letter and the crimes that are alleged in it, it is just amazing that a federal law enforcement agency could get away with this for so long.
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Old March 18, 2011, 12:52 PM   #54
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This should be interesting... apparently at least one Mexican politician is announcing he will ask the United States to extradite the ATF agents responsible for Fast and Furious to Mexico to stand charges:
Hopefully the right people get sent across and spend a little time in a Mexican prison for pulling that kind of stuff.
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Old March 18, 2011, 01:07 PM   #55
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It will never happen, we send them billions in aid, they are our pet neighbor to the south.

No way will the corrupt politicians chance losing the money.
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Old March 21, 2011, 08:16 PM   #56
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It seems to be morphing legally into something more than an allegation, and fast. Of course, let us not rule out imaginative spin doctoring, even now. That is probably the one bureaucratic talent that should not be underestimated.

I just found it on the CBS News site, of all places. It was broadcast earlier tonight. I searched other major national news media and found nothing. Maybe Fox has it too, I don't know. It's beginning to look like a wide-ranging criminal conspiracy this thing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20045609.shtml
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Old March 22, 2011, 03:16 AM   #57
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It's beginning to look like a wide-ranging criminal conspiracy this thing.
In the bustle we are forgetting the golden rule of all government scandals. "Follow the Money"
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Old March 22, 2011, 07:38 AM   #58
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Holder says "Gunwalking is wrong"; yet the latests CBS News story alleges that in addition to ATF, DHS, the U.S. Marshals, ICE, and DEA knew about Fast and Furious. The story also says that an Assistant United States Attorney was overseeing the entire operation.

So if that is the case, I'm wondering how the hell Holder didn't know about this or know what was going on? It is also interesting that he has changed his tune from "That never happened" to "That never should have happened."
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Old March 22, 2011, 11:56 AM   #59
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I just found it on the CBS News site, of all places.
CBS has been at the forefront of investigating and publicizing this in the mainstream media. They were the ones to whom agents John Dodson and Rene Jaquez came forward on the public record.'

IIRC, Fox was a few days later in picking up the story.
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Old March 22, 2011, 05:05 PM   #60
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I just found it on the CBS News site, of all places.
Has anyone seen it on the major TV news outlets during their 5:30 p.m. broadcasts? If hits there, you'll know it's spinning out of control for the BATFE and the Justice Dept. We still have a lot of folks, particularly those over the age of 50 or so, who get their daily news from ABC, CBS, and NBC nightly news coverage via TV.
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Old March 22, 2011, 05:27 PM   #61
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Gee you don't think the current Libya action could in any way be to take attention off the gun scandal, perhaps some info about how high this goes was about to come out.
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Old March 22, 2011, 06:35 PM   #62
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No, I don't. Let's stay in reality here.

We don't do Libya or Pakistan, BTW.
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Old March 22, 2011, 08:31 PM   #63
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The news story was aired Monday night on CBS Evening News.
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Old March 24, 2011, 01:20 PM   #64
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Apparently a Univision reporter was willing to ask the President directly about this: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html

Short summary:
Serious mistakes MAY have been made and IF so, people will be held responsible. AG Holder and the President did not authorize such an operation and presumably will not be among those "held responsible."

It does lead me to wonder how you get multiple federal agencies and an AUSA working on this when nobody at the top authorized or supported it.
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Old March 24, 2011, 03:37 PM   #65
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They failed to get themselves a get out of jail free card. Or maybe they did and now they are trying to figure out who to blame it on. Seems awful slow and obstructive in this new era of accountable government.
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Old March 24, 2011, 06:32 PM   #66
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I keep looking for a reasonable explanation of WHY they thought this was a good idea. The picture below is the best explanation that I have come up with to explain the reasoning that went on in the ATF.



Even the underpants gnomes had sounder reasoning than the ATF though.
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Old March 24, 2011, 09:39 PM   #67
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I keep looking for a reasonable explanation of WHY they thought this was a good idea.
A few GS-12's in the Phoenix division needed a big bust. A really big bust. A really big bust that looks sexy on the evening news.

They got cocky, and they got careless. Foresight took a holiday.
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Old March 25, 2011, 03:24 AM   #68
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Crosshair,

Quote:
I keep looking for a reasonable explanation of WHY they thought this was a good idea.
How's this?

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
-- Frederic Bastiat
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Old March 25, 2011, 04:45 AM   #69
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The problem is that the legal system did not allow it. The whole thing was idiotic.

So where did all the gun running money go?

And gosh letting thousands of guns across the border so that you can then point to it and say; "There are thousands of guns going across the border! We need to fix this!" does fall in line with some other craziness various governments have tried over the years.
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Old March 25, 2011, 06:23 AM   #70
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The fact that a rogue federal agency has broken US laws should not come as a surprise.

BTW: The US ambassador to Mexico has resigned after Wiki-Leaks made public a cable where the ambassador dared to criticize the Mexican government.

Quote:
Pascual also may have ruffled feathers in the Mexican government and Calderon's National Action Party by dating the daughter of Francisco Rojas, the congressional leader of the former longtime ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party. Mexican officials and the U.S. Embassy have declined to comment on that matter.

One of the leaked diplomatic cable that most angered Calderon was dated Jan. 29, 2010, and referred to friction between Mexico's army and navy while detailing an operation that led to the death of drug lord Arturo Beltran Leyva.

Pascual said the U.S., which had information locating Beltran Leyva, originally took it to the army, which refused to move quickly. Beltran Leyva was eventually brought down in a shootout with Mexican marines, which have since taken the lead in other operations against cartel capos.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...kileaks-cable/
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Old March 25, 2011, 07:09 AM   #71
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Obama answering some questions on this matter.

Go to the middle of the page to see the video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8300-31727_162-10391695.html

People have probably died because of ATF's selling guns to illegals and, for a long time, the Administration and ATF were blaming us gun owners, and our FFL's, for the illegal sales to drug cartel members.

All of this appears to have been a blatant lie.

I am extremely disappointed with the ATF. It is time for serious changes to be made to that organization IMHO.

ETA: New letter from Senator Grassley that was posted at another site I belong to:

http://grassley.senate.gov/about/upl...nd-Furious.pdf

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Old March 25, 2011, 11:15 PM   #72
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This is simply another iteration of "Showtime" without the standoff and inferno. They want to make a show of the "problem" by exacerbating it to get more funding in their budget.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

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Old March 26, 2011, 08:36 AM   #73
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I watched the CBS news comments by the President. I find it unlikely that the President knew nothing about it, but I will grant that it is possible. I find it even less likely that the AG knew nothing about it. Whatever the facts about knowledge may actually be, I suspect that someone's going to step up to the plate, claim that he was entirely responsible, and be the fall guy.
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Old March 26, 2011, 05:38 PM   #74
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I keep looking for a reasonable explanation of WHY they thought this was a good idea.
To be able to say that most of the illegal guns in Mexico come from the USA?
Good question.
For what it's worth Glen Beck caught this story friday morning from Wayne LaPierre. I suppose he's about to bulldog it.
http://www.glennbeck.com/content/vid...451373/1230933

Original article/compilation....
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obam...s-into-mexico/
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Old March 26, 2011, 10:42 PM   #75
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Can you say Reichstag fire?

This is a typical Hegelian Dialectic wherein the authors of the "crisis" have a predetermined "solution"; and when the "crisis" fails to materialize the authors claim credit for its prevention.

In this case, they sought to show that there was an unbridled flow of firearms into Mexico which failed to manifest on its own. So they decided to help it along through a program which would falsely skew the numbers higher.

The solution was to be the enactment of restrictions on firearms to staunch the fallacious flow. The cessation of the authors' program would give the false impression that the solution had worked because fewer firearms would be flowing into Mexico.

They thereby gain political power while achieving their goal of firearms restrictions to American citizens.

Unfortunately, for the administration, their plan backfired and the same firearms that they were told would reappear did exactly that with devastating results.

As Rahm Emanuel said, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste; and what I mean by that is, it is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before."
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

Last edited by jimpeel; March 26, 2011 at 11:12 PM.
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