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Old July 20, 2011, 01:22 AM   #676
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
It is germane to the discussion on the potential case of DC vs Gura which was broached HERE. Should we do likewise with that as well? That has nothing to do with the Gunrunner / F&F scandal and takes it a bit off topic.
Unless I missed something, it seemed off topic there, as well. If there are some dots to be connected, please help a brother out.
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Old July 20, 2011, 02:07 AM   #677
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Nope. No dots. Just a segue.
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Old July 20, 2011, 08:20 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by Eghad
The U.S Attorney attempted to take Carter's Country to a federal grand jury for straw purchases. The U.S. Attorney quietly dropped all charges and the egg off his face when he learned the ATF had authorized the purchases as part of the operation.
My understanding was that it was a local prosecutor who brought the charges. Do you have more details on this? I've been looking for information on the actual complaint and charges but haven't been able to find it.

It also seems important from the aspect of whether more "Fast and Furious" type programs were authorized. The U.S. Attorney's office in Phoenix was up to its neck in Fast and Furious. So it seems strange that a U.S. Attorney in Houston wouldn't be aware of Houston ATF programs - even if they didn't involve deliberate walking guns to Mexico.
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Old July 20, 2011, 11:01 AM   #679
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I don't know about the actual complaint but here is a WaPo article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121305395.html
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Old July 20, 2011, 11:53 AM   #680
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Fox News just had Senator Grassley on, he says that Rep. Issa is issuing subpoenas to American officials in the Mexican embassy.
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Old July 20, 2011, 12:33 PM   #681
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I don't know about the actual complaint but here is a WaPo article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121305395.html
That story might be worth saving before it disappears down the memory hole. It appears to demonstrate the following:

1. That in the same time frame that ATF was illegally leaking the name of Carter's Country to Washington Post as a source of crime guns, it also declined to admit that it was the one telling Carter's Country to complete those sales, even after Carter's Country told this to the Washington Post.

2. That the Washington Post was aware of allegations that the ATF had instructed at least one FFL on the list to complete sales to suspected straw purchasers; but declined to mention this in their December 15, 2010 article written just two days later by the same people.

3. That the United States Attorney's office in Houston was kept out of the loop to the extent that they filed charges against an FFL cooperating with ATF.

On the bright side, it seems to argue against a widespread (or at least connected to the DOJ) "Fast and Furious" type operation since it appears the U.S. Attorney's office in Houston was totally out of the loop.
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Old July 20, 2011, 02:07 PM   #682
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OK, If I missed this, then please forgive me since this thread is huge and I haven't read each and every post.
But here is a link to the Congressional Joint Staff Report on Operation Fast and Furious. It is dated June 14, 2011.

http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...ATF_Report.pdf

Haven't gotten through it yet, but wanted the report available in case anyone else wanted to read it.
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Old July 20, 2011, 02:42 PM   #683
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ITs rather sickening but not a lot of new information so far (only half way through it)



PG 38 (of the document Cowtowner provided) is rather maddening in its total disregard for life. It is very clear to me that certain arms were selected for some reason we are left to guess at. IMHO the BATFE focused on providing arms that they felt were more dangerous or more capable of defeating body armor or of being used for very long range assassination.

Quote:
These weapons bought by the straw purchasers included AK-47 variants, Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, .38 caliber revolvers, and the FN Five-seveN.
The choice of weapons seems to fit my opinion well. I take no pleasure in digesting this document, the only real error in it of course is so far it really is an agents view and not much from the people above them.... I hope that will come in time.
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Old July 20, 2011, 03:09 PM   #684
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Time for that will be 6 days from now, when "Gunwalker Bill" Newell will be among the guests of the Oversight Committee.

Quote:
Witnesses:
Mr. Carlos Canino ATF Acting Attaché to Mexico
Mr. Darren Gil Former ATF Attaché to Mexico
Mr. Jose Wall ATF Senior Special Agent Tijuana, Mexico
Mr. Lorren Leadmon ATF Intelligence Operations Specialist
Mr. William Newell Former ATF Special Agent in Charge Phoenix Field Division
Mr. William McMahon ATF Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations (West, including Phoenix and Mexico)
I've got some interesting questions for him, and I hope Issa has more...
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Old July 20, 2011, 11:49 PM   #685
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From post 681:


2. That the Washington Post was aware of allegations that the ATF had instructed at least one FFL on the list to complete sales to suspected straw purchasers; but declined to mention this in their December 15, 2010 article written just two days later by the same people.
-------------------------------
I would assume that this shows the following. That amongst the BATFE, the DOJ and Washington Post, the question of who/which is fuller of it is something of a toss-up.



publius42 wrote:

Time for that will be 6 days from now, when "Gunwalker Bill" Newell will be among the guests of the Oversight Committee.


Quote:
Witnesses:
Mr. Carlos Canino ATF Acting Attaché to Mexico
Mr. Darren Gil Former ATF Attaché to Mexico
Mr. Jose Wall ATF Senior Special Agent Tijuana, Mexico
Mr. Lorren Leadmon ATF Intelligence Operations Specialist
Mr. William Newell Former ATF Special Agent in Charge Phoenix Field Division
Mr. William McMahon ATF Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations (West, including Phoenix and Mexico)

I've got some interesting questions for him, and I hope Issa has more...
-------------------------

Senator Grassley and Rep. Issa get to ask questions, others don't, which is possibly sad, but that's the way the cookie crumbles..
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Old July 21, 2011, 01:06 PM   #686
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Fox News has reported that of the 20 guys arrested for straw purchases last January, only one remains in jail.

Seems most of the people arrested were kids and young guys just looking to make a few fast bucks. Nowhere near the "organized" purchasers the Feds have said they were.
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Old July 21, 2011, 04:05 PM   #687
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A straw buyer, by definition, has little or no criminal record.

The crime they commit carries a ten year prison sentence.

The major complaint of gun controllers about our "weak" straw buyer laws is that they do not receive these sentences, so a longer maximum is needed.

NEWSFLASH: Juries will not lock up these kids for ten years, and if we make the max sentence 20, they will not lock them up for that long either.
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Old July 21, 2011, 04:12 PM   #688
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Quote:
Fox News has reported that of the 20 guys arrested for straw purchases last January, only one remains in jail.

Seems most of the people arrested were kids and young guys just looking to make a few fast bucks. Nowhere near the "organized" purchasers the Feds have said they were.

Read the story of X-Caliber Guns:

Quote:
Even though state trial transcripts and federal investigative records obtained by the Investigative Reporting Workshop suggest that X Caliber's owner knew he was falsifying gun purchase records and selling guns to traffickers, an Arizona judge threw the case out of court. And Justice Department officials have declined to bring charges against him in federal court.
Read more: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...#ixzz1SmBy5Obz




http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...exico/phoenix/
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Old July 21, 2011, 04:28 PM   #689
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One has to wonder, how many more eggs have to be scrambled before this omelet is considered done?
Law Enforcement Officers from two countries killed by suspected "walked guns".
Gun traffickers/straw buyers not charged, tried or jailed. (Pick the correct one)
Gun dealers not even being charged.
And it keeps getting bigger every day.
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Old July 21, 2011, 05:01 PM   #690
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Its funny..... if anyone else had done something similar to this they would be under the prison with the key thrown away already......

This needs to get a lot hotter and justice needs to be served as it would for any other group of citizens... Hard and fast..
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Old July 21, 2011, 07:05 PM   #691
maestro pistolero
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The BATF was clearly attempting to create or enable chaos and havoc to justify a political end.

In the Middle East the name for that tactic is terrorism.
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Old July 21, 2011, 07:57 PM   #692
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NEWSFLASH: Juries will not lock up these kids for ten years, and if we make the max sentence 20, they will not lock them up for that long either.
But in the federal system, the jury does not sentence the defendants. That's strictly up to the trial judge.
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Old July 21, 2011, 09:15 PM   #693
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Gun dealers not even being charged.
Actually, the gun dealers were cooperating with the ATF in this. We're still not sure how they were convinced to do so, but one dealer was given assurances from his US Attorney's office that what he was doing was right.
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Old July 21, 2011, 09:29 PM   #694
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If a citizen had done this it would be legally construed to be an act of war against the United States. Trading with the enemy. Something. Heads should roll for this, and yet...they will not.
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Old July 21, 2011, 11:12 PM   #695
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publius42 wrote:

A straw buyer, by definition, has little or no criminal record.

The crime they commit carries a ten year prison sentence.

The major complaint of gun controllers about our "weak" straw buyer laws is that they do not receive these sentences, so a longer maximum is needed.

NEWSFLASH: Juries will not lock up these kids for ten years, and if we make the max sentence 20, they will not lock them up for that long either.
--------------------------

Newsflash # 2

The same gun controllers keep pushing the same, tired, shopworn proposals, notwithstanding the fact that gun control, where enacted, has yet to deliver the results promised or expected.

As to the actions of trial juries, and their seeming unwillingness to bring in verdicts that lead to maximum sentences, if this happening, might it be described as Jury Nullification?

Perhaps it's time for repeal of existing gun laws, for gun control, as usually offered, impacts largely on the law abiding, in addition to strongly checking the enforcement bureaucracies, that is BATFE and DOJ..
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Old July 21, 2011, 11:43 PM   #696
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The major complaint of gun controllers about our "weak" straw buyer laws is that they do not receive these sentences, so a longer maximum is needed.
What's needed is mandatory minimum sentencing for straw buyers.
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Old July 21, 2011, 11:44 PM   #697
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Perhaps it's time for repeal of existing gun laws, for gun control, as usually offered, impacts largely on the law abiding, in addition to strongly checking the enforcement bureaucracies, that is BATFE and DOJ..
+1-----Hear, hear...I'll drink to that...
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Old July 22, 2011, 03:16 AM   #698
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Orlando Sentinel reprint of LA Times article

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,7932526.story

Link to chain of internal ATF emails at bottom of article.
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Old July 22, 2011, 07:06 AM   #699
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What's needed is mandatory minimum sentencing for straw buyers.
I think those would run into the same (essentially political) problem: these are going to be young "kids" with little to no record. Nobody really wants to lock them up for decades for this crime.

Also, they're incredibly easy to replace. You just need a kid with a clean record, an urge for a fast buck, and the knowledge that he is immortal and can't be caught (that describes a huge number of young men, for you female readers).

It starts to look to me like society is getting the worse end of the deal if we lock people up for a long time (at what cost?) and out on the street, they are replaced before the case is over.

I'm not saying I have a good answer. I think trying to keep guns out of the hands of prohibited persons works about as well as other gun control laws do at preventing crimes, and I'm not sure that is something that can be changed. In fact, I'm pretty sure it can not.
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Old July 22, 2011, 07:22 AM   #700
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I don't know about kids unless they use fake IDs. How young could they be? 18...21?
Saw a FOX news report the other day, they were interviewing the father of one of the straw purchasers.
He was making 100 bux per gun and delivering them to a body shop, and could probobly handle a year or two in the pokie.

But there again, the ATF could have/should have stopped the sales and flagged the purchasers with a felony for the next time around there's a background check....jail or not.
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