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Old July 16, 2011, 04:40 PM   #651
alloy
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I am greatly disturbed to write such a paragraph but the truth is self-evident
Yes it is. Any cursory glance at the death statistics along that border, shows they already have plenty of guns on that side of the fence. The serial number game has been disproven time after time thru the last year. The numbers are fraudulent. They have guns, a never ending supply, and only a small % originate thru FFL sales here.

There is no reason I can think of, to imagine that if I hand over 10 new AK rifles to some guy in Phoenix...that he is going to go to the trouble of smuggling them across some border. Field agents stated the tracking was stopped here by higher ups. Testimony shows they had suspicions the guns were staying here(immediate office reaction to news of the Giffords shooting). They did not lose control of any firearms.....they dispersed firearms.
They were arming them up and asking for The Gaza Strip. .50 cals...they couldn't even say no way to those...when they know lookouts are used up in the hills, here? Just too much fun to stop.

And someone, somewhere, said to themselves at least once(and maybe to others)...."if this mess gets 100% totally out of hand, no matter how bad it gets, we can still make it work for us..."

Heck, if you actually wanted a few guns to end up in Mexico the easy way, Honduras would be the way to go. http://www.cipamericas.org/archives/3029
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...98&FORM=ATRCTN

Yeah, this episode is sickening.
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Old July 18, 2011, 05:14 AM   #652
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More documents from the DOJ are due today. We'll soon see this again...



Quote:
July 11, 2011

The Honorable Eric Holder
Attorney General
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avennue, NW
Washington DC 20530

Dear Attorney General Holder:

As our investigation in Operation Fast and Furious has progressed, we have learned that senior officials at the Department of Justice (DOJ), including Senate-confirmed political appointees, were unquestionably aware of the implementation of this reckless program. Therefore it is necessary to review communications between and among these senior officials. As such, please provide all records relating to communications between and among the following individuals regarding Operation Fast and Furious:

1. David Ogden, Former Deputy Attorney General;

2. Gary Grindler, Officer of the Attorney General and former Acting Deputy Attorney General;

3. James Cole, Deputy Attorney General;

4. Lanny Breuer, Assistant Attorney General;

5. Kenneth Blanco, Deputy Assistant Attorney General;

6. Jason Weinstein, Deputy Assistant Attorney General;

7. John Keeney, Deputy Assistant Attorney General;

8. Matt Axelrod, Associate Deputy Attorney General;

9. Ed Siskel, Former Associate Deputy Attorney General;

10. Brad Smith, Office of the Deputy Attorney General;

11. Kevin Carwhile, Section Chief, Capitol Case Unit; and

12. Joseph Cooley, Criminal Fraud Section.

These records should include e-mails, memoranda, briefing papers, and handwritten notes. Additionally, any records related to communications referring to a large firearms trafficking case within the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) or in Phoenix should be included in any production.

Please provide this information no later than July 18, 2011, at noon. If you have any questions regarding this request, please contact Tristan Leavitt in Ranking Member Grassley's office at (202) 224-5225 or Henry Kerner of Chairman Issa's Committee staff at (202) 225-5074. I look forward to receiving your response.

Sincerely,

Darrell Issa, Chairman, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

Charles Grassley, Ranking Member, Senate Committee on the Judiciary

cc: The Honorable Elijah E. Cummings, Ranking Member, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

The Honorable Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman, U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary
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Old July 18, 2011, 06:59 AM   #653
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Is it possible for an enterprise run so brilliantly, to avoid the temptation of using some federal funding to set up it's own FFL operations, rule out the possible citizen FFL whistleblowers, and get the non-tracking of firearms done at a more impressive rate?

Seems like it might have been a more efficient investigation all around...allowing much more non-tracking to happen. Almost disappointing they didn't take it up a notch.
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Old July 18, 2011, 05:14 PM   #654
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I assume you were trying to be funny, alloy. Try harder...

Quote:
D.C. Councilman Phil Mendelson released the text of his emergency legislation to make the District a federal firearms licensee, able to sell and transfer guns to citizens.

The resolution calls on Mayor Vince Gray to appoint an agency to act as the FFL for the city, which currently has none and therefore no way to legally transfer handguns into the city since proprietor Charles Sykes closed the sole gun shop in D.C. in April.

Federal and district laws require handguns crossing the D.C. border to be shipped to an FFL before the owner can take possession of them. But critics say Mendelson's new measure won't do anything to get D.C. out of a lawsuit that's about to get pricey, and won't do anything to change the strict zoning rules that are keeping Sykes from reopening in the first place.

"They need to come to terms with the fact that the Second Amendment applies to them," Alan Gura, the attorney who is bringing the new lawsuit against D.C., said.
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Old July 18, 2011, 11:10 PM   #655
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Re the quote in post 654, I wonder as to how it is that D.C. continues to "thumb its' nose" at USSC rulings, or at least seems to so do. Some might find this question "off topic", however it strikes me as sort of interesting.
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Old July 19, 2011, 02:36 AM   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by publius42 View Post
D.C. Councilman Phil Mendelson released the text of his emergency legislation to make the District a federal firearms licensee, able to sell and transfer guns to citizens.
What Alan Gura should do is to file an anti-trust lawsuit for restraint of trade and unfair business practices citing unfair competition. The city should not be going into business for the sole purpose of restraining other businesses.
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Old July 19, 2011, 05:53 AM   #657
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Alan,

They can continue as long as they continue to be elected and the taxpayers continue to not mind the wasted money on the losing lawsuits.

JimPeel,

They are going into the gun business in an effort to stop Gura's lawsuit. He has already told them it will not work.
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Old July 19, 2011, 06:09 AM   #658
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I assume you were trying to be funny, alloy.
Probobly, but since the ATF decided to operate outside their rules, I'm not sure how it could be expected that they operated within their rules.

I question what new FFL applicants were approved during the time frame...and wonder if the ATF could avoid the temptation to run a couple of in house gunwalking emporiums.
Seems more efficient. All that new money, and nobody thought they could speed up the sales with a couple of storefronts, sans whistleblower FFL citizens?
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Old July 19, 2011, 10:38 AM   #659
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Interesting article at Pajamas Media on the death of Jaime Zapata, the federal agent who was slain in Mexico. One of the guns recovered from the scene was a Draco AK pistol that could not be linked to Fast and Furious; because it came from an FFL in the Dallas Field area.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalk...mands-answers/

The same article also notes a large number of Houston area weapons turning up in South and Central Mexico. In light of knowledge that Houston-area Carter's Country shops were cooperating with the ATF by making sales to suspected straw purchasers, it does raise an interesting question to how many of those firearms "got away" or whether there was another deliberate decision to walk guns into Mexico at the Houston and Dallas offices as well.

Still too early to say; but definitely some interesting leads to investigate.
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Old July 19, 2011, 11:40 AM   #660
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Re the quote in post 657, assuming that the documents requested did not show up, as is perhaps the case, what happens now?

Can or will individuals be cited for contempt?
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Old July 19, 2011, 12:11 PM   #661
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Well, interesting you asked. Congress has no law enforcement authority of it's own. It refers pwpssible criminal acts for investigation to...

Wait for it...




The Department of Justice.


Yay!
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Old July 19, 2011, 12:17 PM   #662
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Another letter from Sen. Grassley on July 18th. You can read the contents at:
http://grassley.senate.gov/judiciary...w-excerpts.pdf

There are some very interesting excerpts in there. Melson seems to be implying that the whole idiotic DOJ response to the original Congressional requests were basically just the political appointees at DOJ trying to get as far away from the scandal as possible, even if it ended up burning someone else or prevented the problem from being solved.

And conveniently, it appears Melson has identified certain key documents that fit the type of documents Congress has requested concerning Fast and Furious; but that DOJ has still not provided. Melson also helpfully pointed out that one still unreleased Memorandum of a key Fast and Furious meeting that took place on December 17, 2009, had been postdated (see Page 5 of Grassley July 18th letter) and that the Memorandum had really been drafted over a year AFTER the meeting in question. Sen. Grassley helpfully points out to AG Holder that this looks suspiciously like the DOJ may be trying to offer a different version of what happened at the meeting written long after the fact.

It would make for entertaining reading if the subject matter weren't so serious.
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Old July 19, 2011, 01:56 PM   #663
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What a read. I guess the only thing now is to see the reaction from DOJ.
AD Melson should get some credit for at least talking like he wants the truth told and the problems corrected. If he was acting, give him an Oscar. If he was testifying truthfully, then give him the kudos he earned.
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Old July 19, 2011, 01:56 PM   #664
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You know someone (or quite a few people) are scratching their heads and wondering what else Melson told the committee.

That letter was a very nice way to tell the DOJ to stop sending BS responses, because we know what you have.
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Old July 19, 2011, 03:51 PM   #665
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The problem is that there isn't a soul on earth with the authority to hold the DOJ accountable who is willing to do so. So on and on this little game of pattycake will go.
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Old July 19, 2011, 04:56 PM   #666
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publius42 wrote, in response to my question:

Alan,

They can continue as long as they continue to be elected and the taxpayers continue to not mind the wasted money on the losing lawsuits.
----------------------

In-so- far as it goes, point taken, however I find myself curious as to the following. In Heller, correct me if I'm wrong, The Court (USSC) ruled that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms, though they seem to have unfortunately couched what should have been a straight out ruling with lots of "lawyers talk", yes I know that the court is composed, perhaps unfortunatrely, of lawyers.

Notwithstanding this, it appears that existing and or newly enacted laws/ordinances in D.C. preclude the exercise of this right, since local laws/ordinances seem to block acquisition, and in order to exercise the above mentioned, recognized right to "keep and bear", one must have the right, the ability to legally acquire, a right or ability that, in D.C., seems conspicuous by its' absence. Curious, or so it appears to me.
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Old July 19, 2011, 05:06 PM   #667
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csmsss writes

Well, interesting you asked. Congress has no law enforcement authority of it's own. It refers pwpssible criminal acts for investigation to...

Wait for it...




The Department of Justice.

--------------------------------

Lacking law enforcement authority, The Congress retains what has been described as The Power of The Purse. Whether or not it has the intestinal fortitude to exercise that power could be, and perhaps is that often mentioned "different story". I suppose that we shall see.
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Old July 19, 2011, 07:28 PM   #668
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Alan, that's why DC is going to lose in court. Again.
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Old July 19, 2011, 08:31 PM   #669
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Federal law, to which even the District of Columbia is subject, recognizes (at least for purposes of firearms acquisition) dual residency. That is, if I live in St. Louis, MO, for most of the year but I OWN a vacation home in Taos, NM, during whatever periods of time I live in MY vacation home in Taos I am considered a resident of New Mexico and I can legally purchase firearms in New Mexico.

So what about time shares? A time share is like a condominium (or maybe a cooperative), is it not? If I buy into a time share, am I not an owner? So what's stopping an enterprising group from establishing a time share somewhere in the Poconos or western Pennsylvania, or western Virginia, conveniently close to a gun shop or three. Prospective DC gun buyers buy a share of time, go spend a week or two weeks at their vacation residence, buy the gun and legally bring it back to DC.

If they only want that gun ... they then sell their time share to the next prospective DC resident who wants to buy a gun.
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Old July 19, 2011, 08:51 PM   #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
So what's stopping an enterprising group from establishing a time share somewhere in the Poconos or western Pennsylvania, or western Virginia, conveniently close to a gun shop or three. Prospective DC gun buyers buy a share of time, go spend a week or two weeks at their vacation residence, buy the gun and legally bring it back to DC.
Two weeks does not a residency make. Most laws are structured that one must spend 50% +1 day in the state to establish residency. In the case of more than two states, the state where you spend the most time is your state of residency.

You also have to contend with THIS.
Quote:
Sec. 178.11 Meaning of terms.

* * * * *
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An
individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with
the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on
active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of
residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is
located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be
considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in
the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days
prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are
examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y
on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not
become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X
and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or
the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the
summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides
in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A
actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business
trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State
X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because
A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at
least 90 days.
It will be kinda hard to present a valid state issued identification during the purchase of a firearm in a state where you only spend two weeks. It takes longer than that to get a new DL and temporary IDs are not valid..
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Last edited by jimpeel; July 19, 2011 at 08:58 PM.
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Old July 19, 2011, 09:17 PM   #671
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Quote:
Lacking law enforcement authority, The Congress retains what has been described as The Power of The Purse. Whether or not it has the intestinal fortitude to exercise that power could be, and perhaps is that often mentioned "different story". I suppose that we shall see.
Congress also has the statutory authority. This means that Congress can pass a law creating a special independent prosecutor to investigate the DOJ. Given the subject of the investigation, they can tailor the law to require the independent prosecutor to report to Congress or to a body within the judiciary for oversight. The executive might challenge it, but I suspect the judiciary would agree that executive branch oversight would be a major conflict of interest.

Contempt of Congress is a civil breach and treated as such in the courts. Congress has no law-enforcement powers of its own, but may sue other branches for failing to comply with constitutional requirements and hold those responsible up to a civil trial in a the public light. Multiple convictions of contempt (or other constitutional violations) can form the basis of solid evidence for impeachment (but is not a requirement, it just bolsters the case).

Quote:
So what about time shares? A time share is like a condominium (or maybe a cooperative), is it not? If I buy into a time share, am I not an owner? So what's stopping an enterprising group from establishing a time share somewhere in the Poconos or western Pennsylvania, or western Virginia, conveniently close to a gun shop or three. Prospective DC gun buyers buy a share of time, go spend a week or two weeks at their vacation residence, buy the gun and legally bring it back to DC.
One would have to carefully study the proposition. While BATFE and the Federal authorities recognize "dual residency" -- such as a college student living away from home or a vacation home in another state -- the states involved may not recognize dual-residency (i.e. MA and CA do not).

In other words, if you're a D.C. resident and go to State X to reside in a condo for 2 months, State X may still require you prove that you are a bona fide resident of State X. "Resident" may be defined as being employed in the state and/or paying income taxes to the state and/or being resistered to vote in the State.

It's likely that if you live in NJ or MA and register to vote in TN so you can buy guns there, local MA or NJ law may strip you of your resident status. That could have other legal repercussions -- such as paying extra taxes for your kids to attend local schools. (the bureaucracy never ends).
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Old July 19, 2011, 09:28 PM   #672
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Please take the discussion of residency requirements to a thread, such as Lane v. Holder, which is the exact nature of that case.
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Old July 19, 2011, 09:56 PM   #673
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Quote:
Congress also has the statutory authority. This means that Congress can pass a law creating a special independent prosecutor to investigate the DOJ. Given the subject of the investigation, they can tailor the law to require the independent prosecutor to report to Congress or to a body within the judiciary for oversight. The executive might challenge it, but I suspect the judiciary would agree that executive branch oversight would be a major conflict of interest.
The now expired Independent Counsel Act and amendments were declared constitutional in Morrison v. Olson, 487 U.S. 654 (1988). I ran across it today in some research on an unrelated topic. IIRC, the Act allowed certain legislative leaders to ask the Attorney General to appoint independent counsel. The Attorney General was under no obligation to do so. Once the AG appointed the independent counsel, the AG could ask for removal for "good cause" subject to some judicial review. The independent counsel was not otherwise subject to control by the Executive Branch.

The Supreme Court held the Act did not violate separation of powers because the AG was under no obligation to appoint counsel and could remove counsel for good cause. Bottom line, I think it unlikely a true independent counsel could be appointed. What are the chances Eric Holder would do so? That's assuming Congress passed such a statute again.
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Old July 19, 2011, 10:02 PM   #674
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The U.S Attorney attempted to take Carter's Country to a federal grand jury for straw purchases. The U.S. Attorney quietly dropped all charges and the egg off his face when he learned the ATF had authorized the purchases as part of the operation.
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Old July 20, 2011, 12:58 AM   #675
jimpeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris View Post
Please take the discussion of residency requirements to a thread, such as Lane v. Holder, which is the exact nature of that case.
It is germane to the discussion on the potential case of DC vs Gura which was broached HERE. Should we do likewise with that as well? That has nothing to do with the Gunrunner / F&F scandal and takes it a bit off topic.
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"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
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