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Old July 10, 2011, 10:55 AM   #551
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
Glenn said:
www.politico.com has a column indicating that the ATF might be doomed.
Article not coming up at that link.
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Old July 10, 2011, 11:31 AM   #552
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I think a prison should be built to house the federal employees and politicians involved in this farce for the rest of their lives. Not expecting an invite to the groundreaking ceremony any time soon, if ever. The more I read, the harder it is to believe that they are committing these crimes in the name of law enforcement. The FFL's involved in this operation are in a no-win situation and I have no doubt that they are indeed coerced and threatened. This operation is stranger than anything most of us could ever make up. It's obvious that the folks at the top operate under some alternative version of reality. There's no other explanation that makes sense to me.
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Old July 10, 2011, 11:41 AM   #553
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The complete link is above somewhere. Also it is on the page referenced, if you scroll down a bit.
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Old July 10, 2011, 11:55 AM   #554
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Do the states, for instance Arizona and now Florida, not have any recourse whatsoever with regard to the United States government releasing weapons into thier state thru the use of straw purchasers?(which I assume to be a felony)

Is it really such a free-for-all and the state can't prosecute anyone?
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Last edited by alloy; July 10, 2011 at 12:10 PM. Reason: backing off hyperbole
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Old July 10, 2011, 12:12 PM   #555
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Just a note of caution.

We are not going to rehash Ruby Ridge/Waco in this thread.
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Old July 10, 2011, 12:40 PM   #556
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I'm stocking up on popcorn for the day Eric Holder testifies before Congress.
Should be a lot of fun to see him receive an atomic wedgie on TV.

With the new "leak" about Tampa Florida and Honduras, trying to contain this to the ATF alone or to just within DOJ becomes much harder. If it links in with the DHS alphabet soup agencies I think it'll bust the administration wide open.

re: ATF's demise.
Yeah, the NRA wants to keep BATFE around. "Better the devil you know..." logic. Merge it with DHS and it'll get buried under "secret" stamps because DHS fights terrorists, so why should we tell any of our strategies? The FBI doesn't want the job either.

It may be too late to save the agency. Bringing in an anti-gun idealogue like Traver is like putting David Duke or George Wallace in charge of the DOJ civil-rights division. Requiring congressional approval of the next director means he's definitely going to be a political critter. What is needed right now is a director who is middle-road or pro-gun-rights (even slightly) that will force the agency to adhere to "best practices" in its methods and procedures.

Re: "Toothless" or weak gun laws
Most of these claims are simply pig crap. When the ATF agents tell us that the U.S. Attorneys in their areas fail/refuse to file charges in straw-buy or illegal possession cases, then the U.S. Attorney's office is the target for improvement, not more laws. A 10-year and/or $250,000 fine sounds like a serious penalty for straw-buyers to my ears.
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Old July 10, 2011, 12:45 PM   #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris
Just a note of caution.

We are going to rehash Ruby Ridge/Waco in this thread.
Must we? The current administration's scandal isn't enough fodder?
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Old July 10, 2011, 12:50 PM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alloy
Do the states, for instance Arizona and now Florida, not have any recourse whatsoever with regard to the United States government releasing weapons into thier state thru the use of straw purchasers?(which I assume to be a felony)

Is it really such a free-for-all and the state can't prosecute anyone?
No recourse...unless their own state statues mimick Federal law. Check the state's website (usually under their atty general's site) for their statutes. Look for "firearms laws" or "weapons laws" and do a search on "transfer" or "purchase". You'll find that some states have no restrictions on how transfers are done (the Feds cover that)...but may still prohibit felons etc from possessing guns.
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Old July 10, 2011, 01:27 PM   #559
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I think Al typoed and left out: NOT
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Old July 10, 2011, 01:33 PM   #560
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Quote:
I think Al typoed and left out: NOT
Yeah, I re-read it six times, thinking I read it wrong, but alas, the "not" was not there...
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Old July 10, 2011, 02:56 PM   #561
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That "NOT" is there now. sigh. Let me try that again....

We are So Not going to discuss Ruby Ridge/Waco in this Thread!

Should have left it that way to begin with (thanks to everyone that pointed out my mistake).
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Old July 10, 2011, 05:27 PM   #562
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Jack Kelly had a piece in today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Forum(post-gazette.com), see it on-line, headlined Government gun runners, the sub head read The administration needs to come clean on gun scandal. This, by the way, is Kelly's second article dealing with this sorry business. The P-G has been anti-gun for as long as one can remember.

In any case, I and others here likely also agree that the administration (Obama’s Administration) needs to come clean on this gun scandal. As to whether they will, I suspect not, at least not unless there is one hellish amount of pressure from media, I think that's unlikely, or the same from Congress, looking at history, equally unlikely, sad to note. Pressure from Congress would, in my opinion, include repeal or serious threats in that direction, of existing federal laws, failing that, major amendments thereto, amendments directed to creating a very short leash for BATFE and DOJ, concerning firearms enforcement.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the current fiasco will be swept under that well known carpet, hope I'm wrong here, for as some Whitehouse wag offered, words to the effect that "never let a crisis go to waste". In conclusion, it strikes me that there is a crisis here, said crisis revolving about the sorry mess that is Operation Gun Runner and it's misbegotten offspring, Fast and Furious.
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Old July 10, 2011, 06:51 PM   #563
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In any case, I and others here likely also agree that the administration (Obama’s Administration) needs to come clean on this gun scandal.
They should have done that when the publicity first broke. By waiting and claiming ignorance, they blew their chance at plausible denial.

When something like this comes up, there is no time to waste. You claim you just found out, articulate anger that such a thing could have happened under your nose, blame subordinates for covering it up, then fire some of those subordinates.

It's clean and simple, but it doesn't work if you don't take action quickly. This administration hedged and stammered, and now the evidence is being dredged up in full view of a (somewhat) attentive public. Now they have to blame and fire higher-ranking people, and the damage is worse.
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Old July 10, 2011, 07:28 PM   #564
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Tom Servo wrote in part:

"It's clean and simple, but it doesn't work if you don't take action quickly. This administration hedged and stammered, and now the evidence is being dredged up in full view of a (somewhat) attentive public. Now they have to blame and fire higher-ranking people, and the damage is worse."
--------------------------------------------------

I would hope that the public were more than "somewhat attentive" as you so politely put it, but re this same public, I wonder. One hopes for the best re that sort of thing. However re what Obama et all could have, should have done, in plain English done, what they did was blow it. How badly they will be injured is, at the moment, something one can only speculate on, though as for Obama's statement to anti gunners about doing something but "staying under the radar", if the "something" were meaningful and legitimate, which it isn't, there would be no need to "stay under the radar", for the thing to be done would be able to stand on it's own legs. Given that what the Obama Administration likely seeks to do isn't legitimate, it has no legs on which to stand, ergo this "under the radar” business comes into play.
Who knows, but what there might be limits to how far Chicago Style Politics can go.
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Old July 10, 2011, 07:29 PM   #565
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There is no reason whatsoever (at least from the administration's perspective) to be any more forthcoming than they've been already. The obfuscation and stonewalling are still keeping the wolves from the door, and there is zero possibility of any criminal charges coming out of this against anyone of significance. Sure, they may throw a few low-level BATF underlings under the bus should the need arise, but it will never reach any of the key authorizing figures - and even if it does, Obama will whip out his pardon book and make everything go away. But the odds of even that occurring are infinitesimally low, since it is only his own DOJ that can bring federal charges.

They have obviously calculated (correctly, in my opinion), that any fallout from this will not reach critical mass, and certainly not by the 2012 elections. So they're simply, in effect, going to run out the clock for another sixteen months.
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Old July 10, 2011, 08:30 PM   #566
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West Calls For Holders Removal

Yet another call for an investigation..

2 min audio clip

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=319861&fb...32c432135f5e1e
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Old July 10, 2011, 08:40 PM   #567
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When something like this comes up, there is no time to waste. You claim you just found out, articulate anger that such a thing could have happened under your nose, blame subordinates for covering it up, then fire some of those subordinates.
Nobody can know who'll whistleblow, or what they'll say if pressed.
Nobody knows where those guns are and what they do in the next months.
This mess could easily get way beyond where it is now, and they are likely to wish they had done it your way.
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Old July 10, 2011, 09:00 PM   #568
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Nobody can know who'll whistleblow, or what they'll say if pressed.
Nobody knows where those guns are and what they do in the next months.
"Yeah, but that was all Lou's fault. I didn't know a thing about it. I'll tell you, the guy was a loose cannon. We've got pictures of him wearing a lampshade at the last Christmas party if you don't believe me.

"So, when I found out. I took action. I fired his butt. His snooty assistant, too. Because that's what I do. Man of action. My wife says so all the time.

"You know, it's really sad that all those guns are out there. Really tragic and stuff, but it's not my fault. I didn't know what Lou and his boys in Phoenix were doing, despite what some anarchist gun nut on the internet says. We took care of it. You should be thanking us. Now, go watch that show where people get voted off the island. That's more fun, right?

"While we're at it, dig up whatever dirt you can find on Issa. That guy's really cheesing me off."
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Old July 10, 2011, 09:02 PM   #569
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chucky, that's all well and good, but Rep. West knows very well that there isn't going to be any special prosecutor named. The DOJ can simply ignore such requests, and Congress can't appoint one without legislation approved by both houses of the Congress and signed by the president. It's just not going to happen - and certainly not before the 2012 elections.
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Old July 10, 2011, 10:30 PM   #570
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Agreed, but nice to know the conservatives will have another issue in 12'. Maybe big enough to open the eyes of 'some' blind followers...and cause significant headaches for MSM producers (ignoring).
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Old July 10, 2011, 11:13 PM   #571
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I started with the Ethics In Govt Act of 1978 and started surfing. There doesn't seem to be any way to investigate the Attorney General. All other offices, including the President, can be investigated by the DOJ's Office of Special Council -- currently held by Patrick Fitzgerald -- but that office answers to the Atty General.

I guess The House is gonna have to impeach Holder. (like that will ever happen since he's black)
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Old July 11, 2011, 06:17 AM   #572
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Even if Holder were to be impeached, to what end? He would just be replaced by another Chicago apparatchik (even if only on an "acting" basis). Nothing would change. Before he leaves office, the POTUS will provide pardons to all involved in the decision-making, and any subsequent investigations will be stopped dead in their tracks.

I think we are underestimating the WH's determination to use whatever means necessary and available to further its agenda here.
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Old July 11, 2011, 01:07 PM   #573
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FBI and DEA involvment in Gun-walker

This link indicates that multiple agencies were indeed involved in this.....and we are to believe that Holder didn't know? That Obama didn't know?

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/not...contra-scandal
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Old July 11, 2011, 03:00 PM   #574
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PJ Media has a piece today pointing out the irony that William Newell (former SAIC of Phoenix ATF) has been the ATF-attache to Mexico since October; but hasn't actually been to Mexico once in the past nine months because ATF officials are concerned he will be arrested by Mexican officials. Newell replaced Darren Gill who is now cooperating with the congressional investigation of Fast and Furious.

Everytime I see this Administration's version of scandal management, I can't decide if they are really that incompetent or if the scandal is so bad that this is the best they can do with the cards they were dealt.
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Old July 11, 2011, 03:14 PM   #575
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BR, Obama and cadre, with all those smarties around, are too clever by half.

What works in the faculty lounge often fails around real people.

How does Newell do his job, if he can't go to Mexico? Or is it cover for another mission?
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