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Old July 6, 2011, 08:26 PM   #501
Standing Wolf
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Unbelievable. So we have more to come as the layers of the onion get peeled away. Are we ever really going to find out how high this went?
Sorry, folks, but it is believable. No matter how ugly this turns out to be, it's credible. Why do I say that? Because it shouldn't be news to any of us who take the right to keep and bear arms seriously some of the people who "enforce" the law are criminals.

How soon all the facts come to light is an unknown; that said™, however, history isn't over. It may take 50 years for the truth to be made known. It could take 100 years. There's no predicting that, but history most emphatically has not ended.

The only two surprises I see thus far are:
  1. Anyone in the Department of "Justice" could have been dumb enough to approve any of these shenanigans.
  2. Anyone in the Department of "Justice" could have been dumb enough to suppose there's a way out of suffering the consequences of such idiotic shenanigans' failure to produce the desired result.
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Old July 6, 2011, 09:21 PM   #502
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It comes from arrogence and ambition. Just like the FBI guys that were jailed in Canada for kidnapping a Canadian Citizen, in Canada, because he was a "draft dodger"...that...Without even trying to co-ordinate with the RCMP.

These guys were going to be "big guys" and get good bonuses and promotions from their "boss". To heck with the law, we are the law.
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Old July 6, 2011, 09:34 PM   #503
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The only two surprises I see thus far ...
Never underestimate the hubris of political appointees.
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Old July 6, 2011, 09:59 PM   #504
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My concern is that there appears to be no way whatsoever to appoint a special prosecutor. If I'm not mistaken, the current law specifies that only the DOJ can request a special prosecutor. In other words, there is no means available to appoint an independent prosecutor to investigate the DOJ without a bill being passed. And that would require approval from both houses as well as POTUS. Anyone really think there's any chance of that happening?
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Old July 6, 2011, 10:07 PM   #505
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^^^^ Hmmm...No checks and balances for the DoJ? That sounds a bit hypocritical...
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Old July 6, 2011, 10:43 PM   #506
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Melson has a 30 year career to protect, so don't look to him to roll over completely. He's already indicating he "didn't know" all the sordid details of the operation. If he claims ignorance, it's harder to pin the tail on the higher pay-grade donkeys.

Letters to him and Holder "pre-date" the initial news accounts of F&F and he's also claiming he heard about it when it became publicized. Let's hope the House staffers Issa is using are using a very fine tooth comb to peg their inconsistent statements.

One thing that should be repeately told to the media is that the ATF has gone from a runaway train to a trainwreck under DOJ and the DOJ is acting like the drunken night watchman who "didn't see a thing".
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Old July 6, 2011, 10:54 PM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Publius42
An ATF History Moment:
Let's try a little better history...

From the 1982 Senate Judiciary Report on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, this section discusses the abuses by BATF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1982 Senate Judiciary Report
Complaints regarding the techniques used by the Bureau in an effort to generate firearms cases led to hearings before the Subcommittee on Treasury, Post Office, and General Appropriations of the Senate Appropriations Committee in July 1979 and April 1980, and before the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Senate Judiciary Committee in October 1980. At these hearings evidence was received from various citizens who had been charged by BATF, from experts who had studied the BATF, and from officials of the Bureau itself.

Based upon these hearings, it is apparent that enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible. Although Congress adopted the Gun Control Act with the primary object of limiting access of felons and high-risk groups to firearms, the overbreadth of the law has led to neglect of precisely this area of enforcement.
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Old July 6, 2011, 11:27 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
Sorry, folks, but it is believable. No matter how ugly this turns out to be, it's credible. Why do I say that? Because it shouldn't be news to any of us who take the right to keep and bear arms seriously some of the people who "enforce" the law are criminals.
Believable indeed.
Quote:
In ‘Forces of Deviance: Understanding the Dark Side of Policing’, Kappeler, Sluder, and Alpert point out that corruption among police is not new or peculiar to the late 20th century. "To study the history of police is to study police deviance, corruption and misconduct." (Kappeler et al., 1994.)
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Old July 7, 2011, 12:12 AM   #509
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My concern is that there appears to be no way whatsoever to appoint a special prosecutor. If I'm not mistaken, the current law specifies that only the DOJ can request a special prosecutor. In other words, there is no means available to appoint an independent prosecutor to investigate the DOJ without a bill being passed. And that would require approval from both houses as well as POTUS. Anyone really think there's any chance of that happening?
Right now? No. After the next election cycle? Possibly. All Grassley and Issa really have to do right now is publicize the heck out of this until November 2012. After the next election, there may very well be a very big shakeup in the DOJ.
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Old July 7, 2011, 01:00 AM   #510
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Never underestimate the hubris of political appointees.
Nor the Loyalty to a Pension of the ranks below these appointees...... I am astonished that someone blew the whistle ..... and look where that got him.

Quote:
If I'm not mistaken, the current law specifies that only the DOJ can request a special prosecutor.
"Who watches the Watchers?" Someone sees them, as they are not invisible .... but who is watching them?
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Old July 7, 2011, 02:51 AM   #511
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Melson "sick to his stomach."

And obstructing gun probe.

Apologies if I'm reposting.

--Wag--
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Old July 7, 2011, 07:57 AM   #512
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At the rate they are going, I'm surprised Holder hadn't dropped his pants and relieved himself on the Judiciary committee just to make his point more clearly.
I remembered this line and laughed so hard I woke my wife up at about 3 this morning. She really wants to thank you for that.
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Old July 7, 2011, 08:36 AM   #513
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I don't know if you guys saw this or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJAc_...e_gdata_player

It's a radio interview with Sen. Grassley about Melson's testimony.
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Old July 7, 2011, 12:41 PM   #514
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Uh-oh, what's this about the Tampa ATF office walking guns to Honduras?

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...ns-to-honduras
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Old July 7, 2011, 01:05 PM   #515
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Right now? No. After the next election cycle? Possibly. All Grassley and Issa really have to do right now is publicize the heck out of this until November 2012. After the next election, there may very well be a very big shakeup in the DOJ.
Exactly. This should be taken up by all challengers as a prime example of the Obama admin out of control antics and cover up. Use the Dems favorite attack line: "What did he know know, and when did he know it?!"

It seems transparent to me that this Fast and Furious operation was intended to drive up the number of US firearms used and found in Mexican cartel crimes so that the Admin could use it as a "reason" to impose harsher firearms restrictions. There was no bungling, miscommunication, or bad judgement. The WH directed them to drive up the numbers and they did. Thus the jubilation of the ATF supervisors when they saw news reports of more captured US firearms.

The only problem is that they thought they had enough WH/DOJ control to prevent any consequences in case a US LEO was killed with one of these guns. So far they are correct. No heads have rolled yet. The only thing that can be done in the face of stonewalling is turning up the heat on the campaign trail. But since it was dreamed up and approved at the WH and DOJ heads, there is no way they will ever allow full disclosure. They can't or else there would be impeachment.

The Repubs are being too careful here I think. If the positions were reversed the Dems would be roasting the Repub admin over a fire of presumed guilt at the highest level and make them prove their innocence in the court of public opinion. I don't hear ONE Republican making accusations or insinuations that Obama and Holder were the heads of this "US guns in Mexico" initiative. Some need to take the high road and stick to the judicial process but the (R)s need some attack dogs to plant the association of guilt in the public mind.

Taxpayer money used to give an top level cartel source the means to buy US guns, allow them to be straw purchased, allow them to cross into Mexico for the purposes of running up the numbers so the WH can clamor for more gun control.
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Old July 7, 2011, 02:14 PM   #516
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43 walked guns found in Phoenix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSyBqBLX0I
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Old July 7, 2011, 02:25 PM   #517
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"Taxpayer money used to give an top level cartel source the means to buy US guns"

The means? One source estimated that one Mexican cartel made so much money in the U.S. that in one year they had to move... ready for this... the equivalent of over 300 TONS of $100 bills. One year. 300 tons of hundreds.

A couple of years ago an international arms dealer was busted in Asia after making a deal to supply and deliver to Mexico 5,000 full auto AKs and 100 rockets, all for $15 million. The guy had 60 planes. How do you smuggle guns and drugs? You fly the plane in one-way and burn it on the ground after unloading it. When you count $100s by the ton a few million is chump change.

There's plenty of money, they don't need ours.
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Old July 7, 2011, 06:07 PM   #518
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Those numbers are from an article in American Rifleman.

Here's another one. There are about 10 to 12 million AKs in Yemen.
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Old July 7, 2011, 07:51 PM   #519
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Hey, speaking of ten million, Project Gunrunner got its own ten million dollar earmark in the stimulus bill.

In other news, the New York Times did a little piece on Melson's interview with Congressional investigators, but no one here will learn anything new from reading it.

I thought the biggest news of the day was that the Washington Post has finally printed what the government did, or at least a significant part of it.

Quote:
Fast and Furious allowed the suspected illegal purchase of hundreds of semiautomatic firearms in Arizona gun shops so ATF agents could watch where the guns ended up, with the hope of bringing down a Mexican cartel.
At least it is a lot closer to what happened than anything they have previously printed. About time.
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Old July 7, 2011, 09:10 PM   #520
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10 Meelyun Doll-erse in the stimulus bill?

So..... um .... er ...... they are borrowing $10 Mill ...... that my kids kids will have to pay back ........ so they can run guns to Mexico?

My unborn grandkids are buying AK's for drug pushers?????? What the hell is going on? What did they DO to my country?

If you are not angry, you are not paying attention.
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Old July 7, 2011, 09:27 PM   #521
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Didn't the Russians just recently build a new AK factory in South America? I'm certain I remember reading that. These Mexican Cartels don't need to come up here and buy semi auto weapons, this is our leaders selling us out to the nwo trying shenanigans so they can push for more gun control. Traitors to America, and yet people are not mad.

The North American Union and the Amero will be coming soon, so the Mexican border will cease to exist as we know it. Will you get mad then? I tell ya, I'm so mad that I think I'm going to write a letter!
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Old July 7, 2011, 11:58 PM   #522
alan
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Edward429451 asked:

" Didn't the Russians just recently build a new AK factory in South America? "

--------------------------------

As memory serves, yes they did and it's in Venezuela, where Mr. Chavez rules.
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Old July 8, 2011, 01:24 AM   #523
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Fox's Hannity covered the Melson testimony with Issa today.

Part one

Part two
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
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Old July 8, 2011, 06:40 AM   #524
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Now it has been exposed that the project was funded by stimulus money !! That will make it a little easier to track just who knew about it !
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Old July 8, 2011, 08:31 AM   #525
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A congressional exchange, in the future, direct from my crystal ball to your eyes:


Issa: Mr President, I would now draw your attention to page 16 of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, which states:

Quote:
For an additional amount for "State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance", $40,000,000, for competitive grants to provide assistance and equipment to local law enforcement along the Southern border and in High-Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas to combat criminal narcotics activity stemming from the Southern border, of which $10,000,000 shall be transferred to "Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Salaries and Expenses" for the ATF Project Gunrunner.
Issa: Mr. President, if you had no prior knowledge of Project Gunrunner, how then did this verbiage get into your stimulus package?
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