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Old June 23, 2011, 03:19 PM   #376
alloy
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The central question being, if the ATF/DOJ had briefed Congress last year, why have they denied everything this year?
Here's about 5 minutes of the hearing, Jason Chaffetz (Utah) hinting around that same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HON0264F24
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Old June 23, 2011, 04:59 PM   #377
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Ironic how they had to get FFL's to circumvent the law in order to get guns into Mexico and show that our laws are too lax.



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Old June 23, 2011, 06:24 PM   #378
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Ironic how they had to get FFL's to circumvent the law in order to get guns into Mexico and show that our laws are too lax.
Very nicely stated, Wag.

These people are sophisticated incompetents, credentialed twits, who are too clever by half. Definitely a triumph of self-esteem over real intellect. I had an inkling this might really show up, as the only Democrat with low enough standards to run as Obama's No. 2 is Biden.
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Old June 23, 2011, 08:59 PM   #379
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I would suspect that this "anonymous source," if credible, has just set up the ATF/DOJ for perjury charges.
So, according to a journalist once guilty of plagiarism, we have a suspect source leaking details of a "classified" meeting.

Oh yeah, it's all coming together, now... Between trying to defame Issa and throwing Melson to the wolves as appeasement, the DoJ isn't exactly helping their case.
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Old June 23, 2011, 09:01 PM   #380
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We can hope that Issa's investigators and staffers are working hard to put together a whole picture here. DOJ is going to hold ATF at arm's length while holding their collective noses, claiming that it was "within ATF" and DOJ wasn't in on the details.
(Well, except for U.S. Attorneys Lanny Breuer, Burke, and Hurley)

Like Iran-Contra, Issa may be well advised to serve a subpoena on the DOJ's data-center to preserve emails and to print out all related emails, meeting agendas and electronic meeting calendars. These may be enough to provide the "smoking gun" (pun intended) that DOJ knew of the program.

Let's hope their continued attempts to cover up, misdirect and obfuscate are as clumsy and as transparent as the WaPo article. If so, by the time Issa convenes the 3rd set of hearings, the only question will be if Holder is roasted or crispy BBQ'd before it's over.
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:43 PM   #381
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Excerpted from a post by BillCA:

Like Iran-Contra, Issa may be well advised to serve a subpoena on the DOJ's data-center to preserve emails and to print out all related emails, meeting agendas and electronic meeting calendars. These may be enough to provide the "smoking gun" (pun intended) that DOJ knew of the program.
-------------------------------------

How many people do you think would be overly surprised if DOJ experienced some strange computer crashes, with attendant losses of data, or possibly a strange case of spontaneous combustion, in their records room?
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Old June 24, 2011, 04:00 AM   #382
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DOJ is going to hold ATF at arm's length while holding their collective noses, claiming that it was "within ATF" and DOJ wasn't in on the details.
(Well, except for U.S. Attorneys Lanny Breuer, Burke, and Hurley)
US Attorneys making US foreign policy with Mexico? Without consulting their superiors?

Either a DOJ run wild, with no respect for the chain of command at all, or a lie. I'm going to guess lie.
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Old June 24, 2011, 07:35 AM   #383
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Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News says on Twitter

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Coincidental? ATF gives national award to agent who led controversial gunwalking case; gives termination papers to whistleblower.
http://twitter.com/#!/SharylAttkisson
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:38 AM   #384
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Besides the article I linked to in The Daily Caller, there is Main Justice, The Hill and CBS News. All reporting the same thing. This story was "shopped" by the "anonymous source" and only the WaPo bought it.

Now there is this article in The LA Times that seems to indicate that Acting Director Melson is resisting pressure to step down. He reportedly does not want to be the "Fall Guy" for the scandal. Melson is said to be eager to testify to Congress but the DOJ is not giving him permission... And yes, before you ask, he does need that permission.
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:45 AM   #385
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Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News has done some great reporting on this. She was the first major news organization to run with the story and she stuck to it like a bulldog. CBS definitely earned my respect by being willing to take a real news story and run with it when all the other outlets were looking the other way.

Ms. Attkisson also brings us news that two Gunwalker AK47s have now been linked to the torture/murder of Mario Gonzalez Rodriguez, the brother of Mexico's Chihuahua State Attorney General as well as the 250 some previous crimes and the death of two U.S. federal agents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by publius42
US Attorneys making US foreign policy with Mexico? Without consulting their superiors?
Not just making foreign policy with Mexico; but actively violating treaties we have with Mexico as well as cutting ATF's Mexico liason out of the information loop on the whole process. That's DOJ's big conunundrum right now... they can't sell the program as a "few rogue agents" without admitting that they gave the kids the keys to the liquor cabinet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris
Now there is this article in The LA Times that seems to indicate that Acting Director Melson is resisting pressure to step down. He reportedly does not want to be the "Fall Guy" for the scandal. Melson is said to be eager to testify to Congress but the DOJ is not giving him permission.
This is getting good. DOJ wants to throw Melson under the bus but won't allow him to testify before Congress? Sounds like subpoena time to me. If there was even a scintilla of doubt (which there wasn't really) that this originated higher than Melson, that pretty much erases it for me.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; June 24, 2011 at 08:50 AM.
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Old June 24, 2011, 09:37 AM   #386
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I also came across this very insightful piece from Pajamas Media:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/operati...t-and-furious/

Remember the December 13, 2010 Washington Post story on the "Hidden Life of Guns." In that story the WaPo names gun dealers with "the most traces for firearms recovered by police."

However, the 2003 Tiarht Amendment removed such ATF trace information from public disclosure - so there was no legal way WaPo could access that information without the complicity of the ATF in violating the law or criminal behavior in their own right.

So at the same time ATF was directing these gun stores to continue making illegal sales to straw purchasers, they were purposefully leaking these gun stores names to the WaPo as sources of crime guns.

Amazingly, WaPo interviewed the owner of Lone Wolf Trading (Brad DeSaye) and DeSaye still kept his mouth shut and did not disclose the secret ATF operation even though he must have realized that this was going to make him look very, very bad.

And it gets even worse... as recently as May 26, the U.S. Attorney's office in Phoenix gave an interview for "La Opinion" (the U.S. largest Spanish newspaper) which specifically blamed Lone Wolf Trading. The exact same U.S. Attorney's office that was neck deep in Fast and Furious, the same one that met with the FFL at least once and encouraged them to continue the sales, threw their cooperating FFL under the bus just to get a little positive press in the news.

You've got to read the link; but they make a very solid case that the ATF deliberately sold out the FFLs who were cooperating with them. Carter's Country was even investigated by Houston law enforcement; and the charges were not dropped until their lawyer, Dick DeGuerin went public with the fact that they were assisting ATF after the WaPo story made it clear to him that his clients were being used.

Not only has ATF given murdererers thousands of weapons, they have damaged their relationship with FFLs in ways that can't help but hurt future investigations. What FFL is going to trust ATF after this?
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Old June 24, 2011, 10:26 AM   #387
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Not only has ATF given murdererers thousands of weapons, they have damaged their relationship with FFLs in ways that can't help but hurt future investigations. What FFL is going to trust ATF after this?
What FFL really trusted the ATF before this?
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Old June 24, 2011, 11:07 AM   #388
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So at the same time ATF was directing these gun stores to continue making illegal sales to straw purchasers, they were purposefully leaking these gun stores names to the WaPo as sources of crime guns.
Yep. I predicted that back at page one of this thread back in March. DeSaye probably saw himself in a hopeless position when the ATF first approached him. If he didn't cooperate with the ATF, he could expect all sorts of harassment. If he did, he'd likely be the scapegoat when it all went bad.

Even if it's proven that they were just following orders from an agency that can shut them down, their reputation will be severely tarnished.
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Old June 24, 2011, 03:39 PM   #389
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Do any of these FFL's sell on the internet, like Midway or CTD? I will buy stuff from them if I can.
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Old June 24, 2011, 04:42 PM   #390
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by publius42
Sharyl Attkisson of CBS News says on Twitter

Quote:
Coincidental? ATF gives national award to agent who led controversial gunwalking case; gives termination papers to whistleblower.

http://twitter.com/#!/SharylAttkisson
PJ Media has an interview with the terminated agent, Vince Cefalu, who I didn't realize, is also the founder of http://CleanupATF.org. If you want to get an idea of how dysfunctional that agency is, Cefalu says that four years ago he revealed an illegal wiretap by a local police department working with ATF. As punishment, he was given a desk and given 122 minutes of work over the next four years with ATF hoping he would get the message and retire. In that four years, he has been subject to 7 internal affiars investigations, though considering his duties have been changing batteries and filling cars with gas, it appears there was not much they could find. After helping the Fast and Furious story get out and running CleanupATF.org, he received notice of termination recently for "lack of candor."

Part of me wonders if this isn't part of a general effort to try and discredit the accusers (the weak shot at Issa and now this); but with the number of cooperating witnesses in the teens, I am wondering how DOJ is going to manage to smear all of them?

And as smears go, the one against Issa was just weak. If it was true, they could have buried him at his own committee hearing by bringing it up there or simply by responding to his initial letter with "You were briefed about this on this date." Instead they claimed to know nothing about the operation and then claimed Issa knew all about it while they were ignorant... I've seen five-year olds with a mouthful of cookies lie more convincingly. If that is all DOJ has up its sleeve, then they are just digging their own graves over there...
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Old June 24, 2011, 05:30 PM   #391
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Thank you BR! A quick look at CleanupATF.org is quite informative about the disgraceful leadership prohibiting dedicated public servants from doing their jobs.
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Old June 24, 2011, 05:56 PM   #392
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It is very obvious at the point that AG Holder is covering something up by his blacked out redacted documents and his refusal to let Melton testify. I think it is time Congress quits pouting and messing around takes the DOJ to court and file a suit to get these documents.
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Old June 24, 2011, 08:15 PM   #393
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How many people do you think would be overly surprised if DOJ experienced some strange computer crashes, with attendant losses of data, or possibly a strange case of spontaneous combustion, in their records room?
[sincerity] That would be so shocking! [/sincerity]

In full seriousness: aren't white collar criminals supposed to be smarter than bank robbers and liquor store heisters?
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Old June 24, 2011, 09:54 PM   #394
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Part of me wonders if this isn't part of a general effort to try and discredit the accusers (the weak shot at Issa and now this); but with the number of cooperating witnesses in the teens, I am wondering how DOJ is going to manage to smear all of them?
Even if the smears against Lone Wolf and the other dealers amount to nothing (and I think they do), the damage to their reputation is irreversible. People remember the accusation, not the final verdict.
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Old June 25, 2011, 05:22 AM   #395
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In this case, we can make them remember the accuser.
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Old June 25, 2011, 07:40 AM   #396
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IMO ATF and TSA are two organizations that should never have been formed, both use poor tactics mostly to support a need for there jobs.

Someone at the top in project Fast and Furious was more concerned with politics and the second amendment then catching cartels members simply to prove the point we need more gun control doubt seriously any of the rank and file ATF came up with this plan.

Special or independent prosecutor is the only way to really get at the truth however doubt we will see that happen.
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Old June 25, 2011, 07:57 AM   #397
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,7283758.story

Article says, in a nut shell, that acting director Melson wants to testify and does not want to resign. I think he is afraid he is going to be the fall guy, and it could be lonely at the bottom.
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Old June 25, 2011, 08:34 AM   #398
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Melson sounds like he got legal advice from someone other than a government attorney and got a bit shook up by the reality check.
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:08 AM   #399
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I do not read Spanish, but I am curious as to what the Mexican Press is saying about this incident. Anyone have any English language links?
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Old June 25, 2011, 09:52 AM   #400
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It's always the coverup. Instead of coming forward and admitting to implementing a stupid idea, DOJ higher ups are trying to nail the lower levels. Won't work.
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