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Old June 22, 2011, 08:02 AM   #351
Webleymkv
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IMHO, and it appears Wayne agrees, was nothing other than to ensure that more guns bought illegally in the U.S. could be tied to crimes in Mexico, thus justifying harsher gun control laws here in the U.S.

Think about it for maybe 15 seconds, and it's too transparent to miss.
I never had any doubt that this was the case all along. I can't buy that the ATF is quite stupid enough to think that such a hair-brained plan would work the way they said it was supposed to.
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:17 AM   #352
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I would not put it passed the current administration.
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:18 AM   #353
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I can't buy that the ATF is quite stupid enough to think that such a hair-brained plan would work the way they said it was supposed to.
The problem with these people are they think they are smart enough to work the system.


We have guns bought in the USA turning up at crime scenes in Mexico. It has to be because of our lax gun laws. We need to tighten the gun laws.

No, we need to ATF to do their job, as it is CURRENTLY prescribed. I may not like all the laws, but when the agency that is supposed to enforce them, breaks the rules, how the heck am I supposed to be confident that I can play by the rules.

I wonder if Mellons resignation will end it all, or if they will get someone from the DOJ also? Hopefully, if they can get these guys indicted, one of them will start singing and bring down the whole house of cards.
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:28 AM   #354
Bartholomew Roberts
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Google "Media Matters" "Fast and Furious" and ATF and you'll get lots of links describing the ATF talking points against Issa which are basically:

1. The real problem here is weak gun laws, not this program.
2. Poor ATF lacks resources (while of course neglecting to mention that in 1994, 2,500 agents were responsible for 284,000 FFLs. In 2010, 2,500 agents are responsible for 60,000 FFLs.)
3. Darrell Issa knew about this all along and he was OK with it.
4. The idea that this was done to promote gun control as policy is ridiculous conspiracy theory on par with birtherism.

As you can see, they studiously avoid discussing whether the operation was a good idea because it is so obviouslly stupid that they don't dare have that discussion - and naturally, they don't have the least interest in discovering who was responsible for such a poorly conceived operation.

However, Fox and the NY Post have now come right out and said that this was pretty clearly not about law enforcement. Several other news organizations are starting to gently hint at it in their reporting.

And in other news, Rep. Issa's staffer has assurred the media that the investigations will continue and that Melson's resignation (if true) is the beginning of this story, not the end.

So I think the jab at Issa in the Post is mostly just a desparate attempt to try and get him to accept Melson's resignation as an appropriate sacrifice and let the whole thing slide... but I don't see that happening.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; June 22, 2011 at 10:09 AM.
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:01 AM   #355
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Darrell Issa knew about this alll along and he was OK with it.
More likely Barry knew about this all along and he was OK with it.
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:29 AM   #356
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It's kind of interesting to go back a short time....things sure do move fast and furious these days. I'm sure we had threads about these things. Like Calderon dressing down our own congress over these same weapons.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-05-20/p..._s=PM:POLITICS

And the desired result. The ATF demanding more powers.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6232
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:42 AM   #357
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Yeah, alloy ..... it used to be the job of the free press to point these things out. Nowadays, they seem to be a cheerleading section for Our Dear Reader.
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Old June 22, 2011, 10:09 AM   #358
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Anderson Cooper did the story pretty straight last night. Implied that the buck stopped higher up and that was being covered up.

BTW, if some of the critics did know before - an empirical question - nail them also.
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Old June 22, 2011, 10:19 AM   #359
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And Ken Melson's place in history just keeps getting grimmer. This link goes to Senator Grassley's page and discusses even more information he wants from BATFE NLT tomorrow:
http://grassley.senate.gov/news/Arti...eID_1502=35489
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Old June 22, 2011, 11:49 AM   #360
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If this is their idea of "under the radar", they need to duck down a little lower.
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Old June 22, 2011, 12:25 PM   #361
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"Darrell Issa knew about this alll along and he was OK with it. "

I do not believe that Mr. Issa was told that approximately 1700 guns would be allowed to fall into the hands of the bad guys. No arrests, no tracking, no nothing.

Was he told they wanted to bust some straw purchasers? Probably. But they didn't bust them, did they?
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Old June 22, 2011, 01:38 PM   #362
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By the way, did anyone else notice that the author of the Washington Post jab at Issa was Sari Horwitz? This would be the same reporter who was just suspended for three months for plagiarism during coverage of the Jared Lee Loughner story.

I guess WaPo has its A-team on the story.
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Old June 22, 2011, 02:40 PM   #363
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I guess WaPo has its A-team on the story.
I wanted to really badly. But I have restrained myself and will only say that the term can be used in more than one way.
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Old June 22, 2011, 02:54 PM   #364
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"Darrell Issa knew about this alll along and he was OK with it. "
Loaning the family car to your kid is not the same thing as condoning a binge-drinking joyride.
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Old June 22, 2011, 05:10 PM   #365
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If we are to take at face value the claim that Issa knew moths ago (which I do not), how is it that no one at ATF, DoJ or State knew?

News outlets like WaPo and NYTimes should be ashamed of how they have avoided this story for 6 months and now come forward with such drivel. They are bending over backwards to cover for their chosen messiah and his lackeys.
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Old June 22, 2011, 05:30 PM   #366
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Jon Stewart of the Daily show did his piece on the ATF operation. If you do not believe how stupid these folks were this removes all doubt.

The piece wasn't that humorous to me as it made me angry but it puts the whole thing in a nutshell in a few minutes and shows that AG Holder is engaging in a cover-up.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...st_and_furious
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:11 PM   #367
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By the way, did anyone else notice that the author of the Washington Post jab at Issa was Sari Horwitz? This would be the same reporter who was just suspended for three months for plagiarism during coverage of the Jared Lee Loughner story.

I guess WaPo has its A-team on the story.
By assigning her a creative writing task, they could be better assured she wouldn't engage in plagiarism.
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:56 PM   #368
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By assigning her a creative writing task, they could be better assured she wouldn't engage in plagiarism.
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Old June 22, 2011, 11:22 PM   #369
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Just for fun...

Jan 27, 2011: Senator Grassley asks ATF for a briefing on Project Gunrunner by Feb 3.
Jan 31, 2011: Grassley writes Melson (ATF) and Holder regarding potential whistleblower intimidation.
Feb 04, 2011: Asst. U.S. AG Weich denies guns were ever let "walk" from ATF.
Feb 09, 2011: Grassley letter to Holder, complaining of delays and denials. No briefing.
Feb 16, 2011: Grassley to Holder: ATF briefing inadequate and briefers could not answer specific questions. Grassley demands certain specific records from DOJ.
Feb 23, 2011: CBS News is the first TV News org to "break" the story to the public.
Mar 03, 2011: Grassley to Holder: Where are the documents? And DOJ denials "don't hold water".
Mar 03, 2011: CBS News Airs 2nd segment on Gunwalker scandal

Mar 04, 2011: Rush Limbaugh picks up the story, airs to 20M listeners
Mar 05, 2011: All key ATF-Phoenix players summoned to D.C. for Monday meeting (Mar 7th)
Mar 06, 2011: Mexico officially requests information on Fast & Furious
Mar 08, 2011: Grassley asks for an independent investigator for Project Gunrunner
Mar 08, 2011: CBS airs 3rd segment with ATF agents commenting.

Mar 09, 2011: Napolitano denies knowledge of Gunrunner to Senate Judiciary Committee
Mar 10, 2011: Holder to House Judiciary Committee - allowing guns to fall into criminal hands is wrong.
Mar 19, 2011: House Oversight Chairman Issa demands documents from DOJ/ATF
Mar 29, 2011: Issa asks Sec.State Clinton why State has not provided documents to Grassley.
Mar 31, 2011: Issa issues House subpoenas to ATF's Melson to appear and provide documents by Apr 13th.
Apr 02, 2011: Wall St. Journal and Washington Times begin reporting.
Apr 20, 2011: Issa to ATF's Melson, threatens to initiate contempt of Congress charges.
May 03, 2011: Holder before House Oversight committe says he only heard about Project Gunrunner "a few weeks ago" in the media and denies ATF had anything to do with CBP Agent Brian Terry's death.

Looking at this, Holder is either clearly lying or totally incompetent. Doesn't a letter from a Congressman deserve his personal attention? If so, he can't claim he first heard about this in "the media". If not, he has more serious problems than just this scandal.

We still don't have a definitive answer if either of the AK's found near Agent Terry were acutally fired and/or if either weapon killed him. No report has been issued from ATF/FBI/DHS.

We still don't know who authorized the project. Now think about this. It is now at least 3 months since Issa asked for documents; six months since Grassley asked for the same. And DOJ still cannot identify who authorized the mission? Helloooo? The U.S. Navy Seals dropped in, located, killed Osama Bin Laden, positively identified his body and gave it burial at sea all within 24 hours! And DOJ can't figure out who approved or authorized Fast & Furious in an agency full of CYA lawyers?

You don't need a Ph.D to smell something rotten in DOJ and it's not the fish from Denmark.
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Old June 23, 2011, 10:33 AM   #370
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Jon Stewart of the Daily show did his piece on the ATF operation. If you do not believe how stupid these folks were this removes all doubt.

The piece wasn't that humorous to me as it made me angry but it puts the whole thing in a nutshell in a few minutes and shows that AG Holder is engaging in a cover-up.
I thought putting microphones in all bullets was a pretty amusing suggestion.
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:20 AM   #371
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We still don't know who authorized the project. Now think about this. It is now at least 3 months since Issa asked for documents; six months since Grassley asked for the same. And DOJ still cannot identify who authorized the mission?
WE don't know, but I am sure DOJ and higher-ups know. They CAN'T tell us and admit all these sterling people are not just idiots but liars and up to their eyeballs in illegal acts relating to providing firearms to criminals, without considering the collateral goal of creating a situation to justify stricter gun controls (the "Reichstag fire gambit" of making emergency law).

Holder, Napolitano, Obama and major staffers, Melson, Traver and more had to be either giving orders or getting information. A supervisor venal enough to be "giddy" at finding walked guns at crime scenes is not going to keep this to himself but will want kudos from above.

Just when I think the bar cannot go any lower, some one of Obama's boyos finds a way to dive deeper into the cesspool. A never-ending story...:barf:
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:34 AM   #372
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This fiasco is enough to inspire lawlessness from the people.

We have more people incarcerated than any other nation. When it hits 51% we switch sides.
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Old June 23, 2011, 11:38 AM   #373
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This Administration is arrogant enough to believe they can do whatever they want and get away with it and so far they are correct.
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Old June 23, 2011, 12:33 PM   #374
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Bart? Everyone? I was wrong. It appears this is not going to go away with the Melson sacrifice.

Issa has answered the Wasington Post article via The Daily Caller: http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/23/is...nrunner-story/

The central question being, if the ATF/DOJ had briefed Congress last year, why have they denied everything this year? I would suspect that this "anonymous source," if credible, has just set up the ATF/DOJ for perjury charges. Regardless of that, this does tend to show that certain people in the administration are very, very worried.

Nope, this is going to continue gaining legs.
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Old June 23, 2011, 01:22 PM   #375
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I also notice that Melson hasn't confirmed his resignation yet. I wonder if the Administration thought that forcing Melson out and replacing him with Travers was going to solve their Gunrunner problem? Be interesting to see if they go ahead and throw Melson under the bus now that they know it isn't going to help any.

I've got to say, if this is "the Chicago way" it is no wonder that town is such a mess. Some of these tactics are so ham-handed and over-the-top that if even if the setting was a Gestapo officer using them in an old WWII film, I still couldn't buy into it. I guess truth/desperation is stranger than fiction after all.
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