The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 20, 2011, 02:58 PM   #326
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,078
We should oppose Traver with the same vigor that we investigate gun-walker, otherwise this is a win for Holder and Obama. This is a crisis that will either benefit us, or be wasted and benefit the administration.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 05:05 PM   #327
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
Standing Wolf said:

Firing the current head of the BATFE and replacing him with a known anti-Second Amendment bigot is most emphatically not the needed result.
------------------------

True, but that might be pretty much what Obama et al have in mind. As for The Congress, have they ever acted to seriously check the antics of the "ATF"?
alan is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 05:11 PM   #328
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,225
Quote:
True, but that might be pretty much what Obama et al have in mind. As for The Congress, have they ever acted to seriously check the antics of the "ATF"?
Actually, there was a push to shut them down after Waco. Even Al Gore made rumblings about merging them into the FBI. Nothing came of it, though.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 08:11 PM   #329
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 26, 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,649
Quote:
As for The Congress, have they ever acted to seriously check the antics of the "ATF"?
Most unfortunately, alan, you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

Maybe it's time to send a bunch of new people to Congress with orders to do the people's work instead of the government's work.
__________________
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.
Standing Wolf is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 11:07 PM   #330
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,537
Like any bureaucracy, the ATF has to justify its existence. Enforcing alcohol and tobacco laws is pretty far down the line of law enforcement prestige and is decidedly "non-sexy." If enforcement of firearms law was moved to the FBI or other legitimate law enforcement agency (Secret Service?), there would be less pressure for the agency to prove itself and justify its existence through bogus and ill-conceived efforts to ring up numbers and arrests or be a willing political tool. The law enforcement agency assuming the responsibilities would have other duties and responsibilities to help justify its existence. There would consequently be less motive to engage in unlawful behavior.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old June 20, 2011, 11:13 PM   #331
Eghad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
If all we get from this is the firing of the temporary agency head we should be really angry. The law was broken and deaths have occurred from these sales. I agree the agency head should go but if AG Holder fails to prosecute some ATF people he needs to be next on the list. If Congress especially the House part of it does not hold the feet of the White House administration to the fire then Issa and some Reps should be sent packing.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 05:11 AM   #332
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,155
I have re-emphasized my objection to Mr. Traver taking over BATFE to my member of congress. Dr. Burgess seems to agree that Mr. Traver is not a good choice.
Notifying your member of congress would be a good place to start.........again.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearm Safety and Pistol Instructor
"There are three classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see."
Leonardo da Vinci
CowTowner is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 08:40 AM   #333
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,659
Well, it is finally starting to hit mainstream media now - they discussed it on "Morning Joe" of all things. Of course, information-wise, they are about 6 months behind the internet; but I'm starting to see several news organizations actually question the law enforcement angle.

If I were AG Holder, I'd be stacking bodies underneath that bus and looking to throw DHS under there as well to get that attention focused on another Department that has some culpability. I think it is telling that until now the White House response has been "Neither the President nor Holder knew about or authorized the operation" and the latest response was "The President did not know or authorize the operation."

And unlike those who don't think this will go anywhere, I think it has some potential to go far. If it doesn't end up going somewhere it will be because itwas used as leverage in a backroom deal between Republicans and the White House.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 08:57 AM   #334
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Limbaugh bulldogged it a while yesterday as well.
The resignation raises more questions than it answers.....and Traver will likely get the job of cleaning up this whole mess but I don't think Issa is gonna be satisfied until he has a bit more. Just a hunch based on the questions that have already been asked, and statements made to the media.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 10:11 AM   #335
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,628
CNN morning news was clearly commentating that they were idiots and that the incident must reach into higher levels in the DOJ.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 10:36 AM   #336
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,155
Quote:
I think it is telling that until now the White House response has been "Neither the President nor Holder knew about or authorized the operation" and the latest response was "The President did not know or authorize the operation."
Which is in-and-of-itself an admission that they lied in their previous statement.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 10:46 AM   #337
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,786
Fox news gave it a good go this morning.
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 12:18 PM   #338
Eghad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
The ATF was transferred to the DOJ under the Homeland Security Bill in 2003. This should all be stopping at AG Holders front door step. If he is claiming he knew nothing about this idiotic operation then he should be under the bus material for the White House. Especially since he has not announced some criminal prosecutions of the ATF personnel resonsible for this fiasco.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range

NRA Life Member
Eghad is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 12:43 PM   #339
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,225
Quote:
Notifying your member of congress would be a good place to start.
True, but know which members can make a difference. Traver's being groomed for a position as acting director, which does not require confirmation through the Senate Judiciary Committee.

These are the guys who control the actual budget, and who can put real pressure on the ATF. Of course, a quick glance at the roster shows why the ATF continues to enjoy budget increases year by year.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 12:44 PM   #340
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,320
Quote:
If I were AG Holder, I'd be stacking bodies underneath that bus and looking to throw DHS under there as well to get that attention focused on another Department that has some culpability.
You mean a bus like this one?

__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 01:08 PM   #341
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,876
Originally posted by alan
Quote:
Concerning the foregoing, might I point out the following. The AFT, and it's criminal antics have been ongoing through administrations both Democratic as well as Republican.

Under either of the above, have ANY of the ridiculous federal gun laws been repealed? The answer is NO, none have been so treated. Matter fact, members of congress have, on an ongoing basis, bent over backwards to defend the ATF, notwithstanding its' antics, the nature of which are criminal, in my view. As I said in a recent, lengthy post, all manner of garbage has accumulated in the closet where legislation is found. A wholesale house cleaning, especially re firearms, is very long overdue, yet from the congress, that is the very last thing that one might reasonably expect, judging from the historical performance of The Congress, either Democratic or Republican controlled.
I may be mistaken, but it is my understanding that while Fast and Furious had its origins in 2007, the straw purchasers were stopped and arrested and the guns confiscated when they tried to cross the border until the Obama administration took over in 2009.

Honestly, I think you're kind of missing my point. Even if Grassley and Issa don't give a hoot about the 2A rights of you and me, the potential damage that this scandal could have for the Democratic party is, IMHO, too valuable for them to let it get swept under the rug.

Will this whole ordeal strip away the overly broad regulatory powers that the ATF has been given unconstitutionally? I doubt it, that's probably something that we'll have to do through the courts. However, I do think that this whole thing may help us get rid of some rotten eggs so to speak.

Quote:
This business of moving ATF responsibility for firearms enforcement to some other agency, AFT personnel too, would be tantamount to "mixing dirty water with clean water", action that creates more dirty water, it has been noted. Respecting moving ATF duties to the FBI, the following question comes to mind, and by the way, this question must be answered. Is the FBI all that clean? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. While the ATF is problematic, this coming from the antics and attitudes of its' management, in some cases, the individual agent is no damned good,the real problem, in my view, lies in and with the really abhorrent nature of the legislation it enforces, this Viorginia falling under the purview of The Congress.
Herein lies the problem, the ATF isn't going to just go away. There will always be some federal gun laws and someone is going to enforce it. While I agree that the FBI is far from perfect, I do think that they're a lot better than the ATF is. As I said before, I think that because the FBI has a wider range of responsibilities, they're less likely to engage in the antics of the ATF simply because they've got better things to do. I think that part of the reason that the ATF so aggressively pursues so much of what they do is because they're trying to justify their own existence. It's difficult to get funding if you're not doing much (which the ATF probably wouldn't if they didn't spend so much time trying to turn people into criminals), so you manufacture something to justify the funding. I just don't foresee this being as big a problem with the FBI.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar

Last edited by Webleymkv; June 21, 2011 at 01:20 PM.
Webleymkv is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 01:14 PM   #342
2guns
Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2010
Posts: 45
We should be demanding more than a shuffling of the deck.

Tom Servo wrote:

True, but know which members can make a difference. Traver's being groomed for a position as acting director, which does not require confirmation through the Senate Judiciary Committee.

These are the guys who control the actual budget, and who can put real pressure on the ATF. Of course, a quick glance at the roster shows why the ATF continues to enjoy budget increases year by year.


Excellent point, Tom. An acting director would mean that the administration successfully circumvented the confirmation process and got another one of their operatives in position. Traver is bad news!

As to your second point about de-funding the ATF, I would say that is most important at this time. However, as you rightly observe, looking at that list is downright depressing! Every single Democrat is a known anti-gun zealot and the members from the other team, the Dead Elephant Party, are not much better....RINO's all of them.

I still say there should be a lot of political hay to made from this scandal and Holder should be next on the chopping block. If it drags on long enough, as I expect that may be part of the strategy now, the Obamamessiah is going to have a hard go of getting away from this mess....and that is a good thing.
2guns is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 01:21 PM   #343
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,659
Quote:
You mean a bus like this one?
A short bus too... that picture is an appropriate metaphor for this operation in several ways
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 01:31 PM   #344
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,155
Quote:
True, but know which members can make a difference. Traver's being groomed for a position as acting director, which does not require confirmation through the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Absolutely correct, Sir. But it don't hurt to start a preemptive maneuver to back us up. As long as the members are aware of the public's feeling about Mr. Traver, his chances of keeping the job go down.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearm Safety and Pistol Instructor
"There are three classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see."
Leonardo da Vinci
CowTowner is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 01:31 PM   #345
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,876
Originally posted by Tom Servo
Quote:
Quote:
A scandal can be very valuable politically and we're not all that far away from the 2012 election.
I wish I shared your optimism, but memories are very short. I had a guy shouting at me the other day about how "they" were going to take his guns any day now, and that we never should have elected the current President.

When I asked him who he voted for, he said, "the other guy." OK, which "other guy?" He couldn't remember who ran on the Republican ticket less than three years ago.

As such, it would be quite a stretch for him to remember (for him) a minor political scandal that never made the evening news. Heck, he probably won't even get off the couch long enough to go vote.

They are trying to brush this under the rug by firing Melson. This whole situation has probably reached its apex for media exposure. Barring any sudden, drastic revelations, I really don't see it getting much traction in terms of Joe Sixpack's perception.

I hope I'm wrong.
So long as Grassley and Issa keep fighting the stonewalling, I think they could probably drag it out until the next election if they want to. I agree that if the whole thing was over with tomorrow, it may very well fade from public memory by next November. If this thing kept going and really intensified in September or October of 2012, I think it could be political gold for the Republicans. Things like this often take a while and I think that the timing of this reflects that. Remember, the Lewinski sex scandal dragged on from January of 1998 until February of 1999 and Watergate went on from June of 1972 until August of 1974.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 09:40 PM   #346
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,225
...and the backlash begins. From the Washington Post:

Quote:
At the briefing last year, bureau officials laid out for Issa and other members of Congress from both parties details of several ATF investigations, including Fast and Furious, the sources said. For that program, the briefing covered how many guns had been bought by “straw purchasers,’’ the types of guns and how much money had been spent, said one source, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the briefing was not public.

“All of the things [Issa] has been screaming about, he was briefed on,’’ said one source familiar with the session.
The cornered bear is lashing out by attacking the credibility of its critics. This is to be expected, and frankly, the timing seems about right.

This isn't likely to derail the investigation, but it casts a pallor over it that might change how sympathetic the media is to Issa.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old June 21, 2011, 11:51 PM   #347
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
Re those who might be "thrown under the bus", I believe that a likely listing of "sacrificial lambs", would read pretty much as follows.

Melson/Traver, Holder, the "thrower" being Obama. After Holder, who knows.
alan is offline  
Old June 22, 2011, 01:06 AM   #348
Falcon642
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 314
MSNBC finally posted a story on Fast and the Furious, only after they found a way to spin it in a "gun stores are bad and gun laws are too lax" way.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43487612...ience_monitor/

Quote:
The Wilson Center’s Olson says the tragedy of Fast and Furious is that it, too, was aimed at addressing a problem that until a few years ago received little attention.

“All of a sudden a few years ago there was a lot of attention to this problem of straw purchasers, the people with clean records that the traffickers send into the gun stores to make their purchases,” he says.

“The intent of Fast and Furious was to get at that problem, and beyond that to try to somehow get at the network of traffickers,” Olson says. “The intent at least was a noble one, but according to all the reports it got way out of hand.”
:barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::barf:
Falcon642 is offline  
Old June 22, 2011, 04:54 AM   #349
publius42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2002
Posts: 1,887
The Washington Post says that Congress was briefed on the operation, but did that briefing include the part about letting the guns walk? That was what was new in the program, and the Post suggests that ATF told Congress, but not the administration or DOJ. Hmmm....

Quote:
Justice Department officials have said the operation was approved by ATF’s Phoenix field office and the U.S. attorney’s office in Phoenix. The department’s inspector general is investigating allegations that Justice and ATF allowed nearly 2,500 guns to flow illegally into Mexico as part of the program.
So the US attorney and ATF field office out in Phoenix were busy making US foreign policy with Mexico, but were not consulting their superiors back in Washington? Uh huh. Not credible.

Quote:
For nearly a year, agents tracked guns they suspected might end up in the hands of Mexican cartels. But several ATF agents testified before Issa’s committee last week that they were ordered not to stop people they suspected had illegal guns.
I thought the whole problem here was that they did NOT track the guns, and that is why we do not know where most of them are today. According to Congressional testimony, they allowed the straw sales, recorded the serial numbers, then waited for the guns to turn up at crime scenes. That is not "tracking" the guns if you ask me.
publius42 is offline  
Old June 22, 2011, 05:33 AM   #350
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,317
NRA magazine showed up in the mail yesterday. Wayne LaPierre's column proposes exactly the scenario that I have suspected: there never was any infrastructure in place to track these guns once they crossed the border (and, in fact, the BATFE guys down Mexico way weren't even in the loop), so the cover story about hoping to follow the guns to drug kingpins is pure lie.

IMHO, and it appears Wayne agrees, the real goal was nothing other than to ensure that more guns bought illegally in the U.S. could be tied to crimes in Mexico, thus justifying harsher gun control laws here in the U.S.

Think about it for maybe 15 seconds, and it's too transparent to miss.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; June 22, 2011 at 08:07 PM.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Reply

Tags
atf , fast and furious

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18877 seconds with 8 queries