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Old June 15, 2011, 12:15 PM   #276
Bartholomew Roberts
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Issa just tore into Welch.

ISSA: "Who authorized this program that got people killed? Do you know who authorized it at the highest level? Yes or no."

WELCH: <hemming and hawing> No.

So either the DoJ is less well managed than a KFC restuarant at 1am or Welch just perjured himself in testimony before Congress. It looks like there may be some good job openings in DoJ soon.

ETA: Rep. Lankford just asked why Welch testified that no firearms were knowingly allowed to go into Mexico. Welch responds by saying (my summary)We said ATF did not knowingly allow straw-purchasers to carry firearms to Mexico. Somebody else carried them to Mexico, so we didn't lie about that...

How is that for a legalistic distinction to make in front of the House Oversight Committee?

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Old June 15, 2011, 01:17 PM   #277
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Welch's response was not an answer to the question that was asked. He was very evasive while professing his "desire" to cooperate with the committee (by handing over black paper). Stayed tuned folks.
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Old June 15, 2011, 02:00 PM   #278
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Looks like the hearings are finally starting to generate media attention from somebody besides CBS News, the Tuscon Citizen, the Examiner, and Fox.

MSNBC
CBS News
CNN
The Hill
NPR
Fox News
Tuscon Citizen
Wall Street Journal
Houston Chronicle
WaPo runs with an AP newswire on the hearings
Even the New York Times covered it...

Strangely, ABC News has almost nothing on the scandal, though their local affiliate in Arizona covered it.

Some pretty juicy scandal bait was released today... and it looks like it is starting to catch some attention finally.
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Old June 15, 2011, 03:39 PM   #279
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I think the "high ups" should be tried for 1st degree Murder of an federal law enforcement officer! They knew exactly what these guns were being purchased for, where they were going, and what was going to be done with them, and let illegal actions occur to allow the end result.
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Old June 15, 2011, 03:43 PM   #280
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@ Dead: I agree with you, the people in the Federal Government and ATF who allowed this to happen should go to jail. I hope the family of that border patrol officer who was killed SUES THE PANTS off of the ATF. The ATF has shown itself to be a trouble institution as long as I can remember, dating back to the whole Waco Tx and Ruby Ridge things. I hope they eliminate the ATF and divvy up its responsibilities between the FBI & DHS, why do we really need a separate agency just for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms? Why Can't the FBI or DHS take care of this using less personnel and costing the American tax payer less?
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Old June 15, 2011, 04:58 PM   #281
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Tom Servo wrote:

it makes more sense to gather ALL of the facts and "smoking guns" (pun intended), and release it all much closer to the elections.

Another thing to consider: if this extends all the way to the Attorney General (and possibly higher), we'll be making some pretty serious accusations. We've got to be absolutely sure that we've got some pretty serious proof to back it up.

We'll likely see some mid-level management thrown to the wolves if this gets more traction, but getting further up the ladder will require some pretty dire evidence.

And right now, the DoJ controls the flow of evidence.
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Re the opening observation, absolutely true.

Likely, it extends way past the AG, for instance right up to the person that appointed him.

On throwing "mid-management" people to the wolves, that's likely what will happen, a few sacrificial lambs will be searched for, and found. They will then be "sacrificed", for those ultimately responsible must/will be protected.

As to the last, DOJ controls the flow of evidence, that's right, but The Congress, if it has the guts, controls the flow of money. As another poster asked, absent appropriations, will DOJ/BATFE "go into business for themselves"? Who knows. Does The Congress have the guts to really get to the bottom of this? Again, who knows. By the way, nothing above offered is intended to clean the skirts or trousers of The Congress, which bears significant responsibility for the current mess, for instance, when did they last repeal any of the idiocy they enacted in the name or cause of Gun Control? Prohibition was enacted too, despite the fact of it's being constitutionally questionable, questionable on the basis of common sense too.

As for media seemingly "soft peddling" the executive branch screw-up, does that really surprise anyone, given that media, in general, is virulently anti gun, anti gun rights?

Last edited by alan; June 15, 2011 at 05:00 PM. Reason: to correct a typo
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Old June 15, 2011, 05:05 PM   #282
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Jason Chaffetz of Utah was really on the case, when questioning the DOJ spokesman. What is this "memo" he referred to, from January, which congress got, which proves the admin knew the gunrunning was current policy?

Budget request?
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Old June 15, 2011, 05:10 PM   #283
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Congress has released a report of the hearings:
http://oversight.house.gov/images/st...ATF_Report.pdf




Much more at the link. The gist of the report is that the ATF already had the goods on the straw purchasing rings and the field agents were told to let guns walk to try and get evidence on more conspirators in the ring. The effort to catch more folks failed and the guns started showing up at crime scenes. Field agents and gun dealers repeatedly raised alarms that were ignored. After the scandal was exposed by field agents, the DoJ began lying to Congress to cover up their mistakes.
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Old June 15, 2011, 05:26 PM   #284
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Quote:
Likely, it extends way past the AG, for instance right up to the person that appointed him.
It could, but proving that the President knew the specifics and explicitly authorized the walking of these guns is going to be extremely difficult. With Watergate, we had the tapes, but I imagine folks have learned since then.
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Old June 15, 2011, 05:34 PM   #285
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Quote:
With Watergate, we had the tapes, but I imagine folks have learned since then.
As far as I can find, even in that situation, it wasn't proven that Nixon authorized the burglary just that he was caught on tape in cover up damage control mode.

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Old June 15, 2011, 06:14 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Quote:
Originally Posted by alan
Likely, it extends way past the AG, for instance right up to the person that appointed him.
It could, but proving that the President knew the specifics and explicitly authorized the walking of these guns is going to be extremely difficult. With Watergate, we had the tapes, but I imagine folks have learned since then.
Tom:

Your last is likely correct, especially re "difficulty", but then one never knows. People may have learned, but then possibly they haven't, after all, some still subscribe to the Flat Earth Theory, don't they. As to how high in government such folks might have gone, who knows. Sometimes it turns out that really smart people "outsmart themselves", that possibly being the case here. A whole lot of digging seems o be the order of the day, along with contempt citations and the jailing of guilty parties, some of them having achieved "elevated positions" in government.
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Old June 16, 2011, 04:02 PM   #287
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2damnoldf4this posted a link to the report from Congress. In that report we find this: Unfortunately, ATF never achieved the laudable goal of dismantling a drug cartel. In
fact, ATF never even got close. After months and months of investigative work, Fast and
Furious resulted only in indictments of 20 straw purchasers. Those indictments came only after
the death of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry. The indictments, filed January 19, 2011,
focus mainly on what is known as “lying and buying.” Lying and buying involves a straw
purchaser falsely filling out ATF Form 4473, which is to be completed truthfully in order to
legally acquire a firearm. Even worse, ATF knew most of the indicted straw purchasers to be
straw purchasers before Fast and Furious even began
.


So ATF knew most of these straw purchasers even before Operation Gun Walker. That begs an obvious question: Why in the H E double toothpicks weren't they arrested and put in jail? When you know a person has already committed a felony (straw purchases are felonies are they not), shouldn't you have them in the court system and maybe even locked up in jail cells? Sheesh!
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Old June 16, 2011, 04:07 PM   #288
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Quote:
That begs an obvious question: Why in the H E double toothpicks weren't they arrested and put in jail?
They threw all caution to the wind in hopes of "the big fish" via conspiracy type direction... They thought they were gonna catch the cartel boss diggin' nickles out of his sofa cushions to pay the initial buyer for these firearms while in Mexico... nevermind the difficulty of being allowed by mexican feds to do so...

And they would have had to tell the mexican feds of the operation which would have opened a stinky can of rotting worms... Calderon had already stood in front of OUR elected officials to chastise our 2A rights that allow what???? OH YEAH.... "HIGH POWER ASSAULT RIFLES" to enter mexico...

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Old June 16, 2011, 04:18 PM   #289
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Quote:
They threw all caution to the wind in hopes of "the big fish" via conspiracy type direction... They thought they were gonna catch the cartel boss diggin' nickles out of his sofa cushions to pay the initial buyer for these firearms while in Mexico... nevermind the difficulty of being allowed by mexican feds to do so...
Never mind that manyof the Mexican fedaralies are in cahouts with the drug cartels in the first place. Can you imagine trying to use the Mexican government to try and catch drug cartel members in Mexico? The cartel members would be tipped off before any US agents ever crossed the border. Sort of like using Pakistani intelligence to capture/kill Bin Laden. He'd have been gone a long time before the Seals showed up.
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Old June 16, 2011, 09:03 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogdogs View Post
They threw all caution to the wind in hopes of "the big fish" via conspiracy type direction...
The big fish they were after were you and me. This was never about anything but padding the numbers to justify new and more restrictive anti-firearms laws. When their lies about firearms traces was found to be false, they needed to do something to make them more believable.
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Old June 16, 2011, 09:08 PM   #291
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Jim says...
Quote:
This was never about anything but padding the numbers to justify new and more restrictive anti-firearms laws. When their lies about firearms traces was found to be false, they needed to do something to make them more believable.
In all my infinite naivety I was hoping that part was looked upon as just the silver lining to a legit operation gone bad...

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Old June 16, 2011, 10:46 PM   #292
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Ah, the age of enlightenment ...
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
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Old June 16, 2011, 11:09 PM   #293
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hogdogs wrote:

In all my infinite naivety I was hoping that part was looked upon as just the silver lining to a legit operation gone bad...

------------------------------------------------------

Concerning firearms, was ANYTHING the ATF was involved with ever legitimate??

jimpeel quoted and wrote:
Originally Posted by hogdogs
They threw all caution to the wind in hopes of "the big fish" via conspiracy type direction...

The big fish they were after were you and me. This was never about anything but padding the numbers to justify new and more restrictive anti-firearms laws. When their lies about firearms traces was found to be false, they needed to do something to make them more believable.

------------------------------------

Re the ATF, as it is often described, BATFE would be more correct and complete, one suspects that concerning firearms, anything that they do is promulgated in an around "making numbers", numbers that often fall apart when examined, something that is not supposed to be done, numbers that are supposed to make BATFE (ATF) look good, which aids their never ending quest for MORE. More what?? Try power, authority, money. Of course, for law abiding gun opwners, this means LESS. Less of what?? Try rights, safety and freedom fdom phonied up claptrap charges.

On another subject, there was once a book written. Its' title was And The Band Played On, which is just about what one sees with the "ATF", The Band Plays On.
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Old June 17, 2011, 06:38 AM   #294
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When do these hearings resume?
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Old June 17, 2011, 09:20 AM   #295
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When do these hearings resume?
That represents all the hearings that have been scheduled at this time. Rep. Issa proposed a compromise solution where DoJ would grant Congressional staff an opportunity to examine the documents they seek "in camera" (means DoJ retains control of them and the information within them would not be for public consumption).

Not suprisingly, the person DoJ sent, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich (which I have been mistakenly spelling as Welch) does not have the authority to agree to such a deal, so there is a temporary lull.

If DoJ continues to be obstructionist, both Rep. Issa and Sen. Grassley have indicated they will escalate until they get cooperation. Of course, the President, who promised the most transparent administration ever (and I suppose it is in some ironic sense), could simply order the DoJ to comply but despite his claim that neither him nor AG Holder knew anything about this operation, he has backed DoJ in ignoring the Congressional subpoena.
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Old June 17, 2011, 09:52 AM   #296
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Thanks, I was able to catch the hearing the other day and figured there was going to be some time required when Mr. Cummings started asking about working/cooperating together on the documents to speed things along.

Obviously not going to move along as fast as we/I would like....but Issa and Chaffetz seemed like they are on a mission. (A few others as well)
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Old June 17, 2011, 10:34 AM   #297
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I just finished reading the "Accounts of ATF Agents." Even if I were willing to concede that F&F were conceived for a proper purpose, and I'm not, it was remarkably stupid in its execution. When I crank my tinfoil hat down real tight, I want someone to go start looking into the bank accounts of the AUSA who was doing the wiretap warrants and whatever supervisors authorized this. Frankly, it seems like a halfway decent plan for the cartels to get ATF to look the other way in regards to their gunrunning operations. It's a spectacularly rotten law enforcement plan, though.
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Old June 17, 2011, 10:50 AM   #298
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More of an observation than a "reply", however if I may:

jimpeel closed a post with the following. "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

The really sad aspect of that simple fact is the following. Under previously existing government regulations, those 8 pilots would have been armed, correct me should I be in error. Had those 8 pilots been armed, the results had, at days end, might have been markedly different.

Re the endless caterwauling of The Anti Gun Nuts, this is something for all to think on. People of good will being armed, can and does save lives, an ability or predilection that Gun Control has yet to demonstrate.
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Old June 17, 2011, 10:51 PM   #299
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Quote:
jimpeel closed a post with the following. "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
I think that's part of his signature line and not really relevant to this topic, sort of like using a gun rather than a seeing eye dog.
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Old June 17, 2011, 11:42 PM   #300
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Fast and Furious Goes International

A summary of Fast and Furious appears in the international press -- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-2297924.html.

All in all, a pretty good report with one major exception:
Quote:
Cartels make their money smuggling cocaine and cannabis north from Mexico, and simultaneously equip their private armies with assault weapons purchased thanks to America's notoriously relaxed gun laws.
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