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Old September 20, 2012, 11:56 AM   #2601
alan
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My post # 2597 didn't come out well, operator error.

Tom Servo's post, which I referenced was # 2591.

My post # 2599 is somewhat better, excuse my rotten typing.
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:00 PM   #2602
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
As for Mr. Melson, I sujspect that he will sail off to a glorious, financially comfortable, in part publically funded retirement, which is anoither sad aspect of this entire business.
I don't know how glorious or financially comfortable it will be; but when Melson met with Congress with his own lawyer and not the DOJ lawyer, he pretty well burned his bridges with Eric Holder and the current DOJ.
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Old September 20, 2012, 12:06 PM   #2603
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nate45 wrote:

DOJ's own lawyers conduct investigation under Holder's supervision

"In the investigation I have overseen of myself, I have found that I have done nothing wrong."-Eric Holder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like a reasonable rendition of ongoing "stuff". It was all the fault of those "lower level" types, some of whom are conveniently gone, having quit or retired . I Knew or Know Nothing.
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Old September 20, 2012, 01:12 PM   #2604
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Holder is running out the clock. Expect a last minute pardon if there is no second term.
I agree with this and if it ends up being true the lashback could be quite significant... I truly cant even see how investigating yourself could be ethical, lot of contflict of interest. I guess some people neednt bother with ethics..

I would also like to know if this investigation was only conducted with the redacted paperwork or if they had full access... Not that I have any faith in this investigation.
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Old September 20, 2012, 01:34 PM   #2605
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Does this leave Issa and company with any real options?

Or has the fat lady already left the building?
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:22 PM   #2606
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Can they pardon him of stuff he has not been convicted of..... yet?
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Old September 20, 2012, 04:27 PM   #2607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86
Can they pardon him of stuff he has not been convicted of..... yet?
Yes. See Ford's pardon of Nixon.
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Old September 20, 2012, 05:33 PM   #2608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan
Sounds like a reasonable rendition of ongoing "stuff". It was all the fault of those "lower level" types, some of whom are conveniently gone, having quit or retired . I Knew or Know Nothing.
More importantly, NONE of the lower- and mid-level types responsible for the debacle had anything other than the purest of motives. If anything went wrong, it was entirely due to simple management decisions that underestimated the impact of the program. There was no "agenda."

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Old September 20, 2012, 06:38 PM   #2609
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There was an agenda, (sorry if I am missing your sarcasm) , and it was to use the gun walking to justify restrictions on assault weapons. As you may recall, the Secretary of State repeated over and over that 90% of the drug/crime weapons recovered in Mexico were of US origin and then truth came out that only a tiny fraction of the guns were of US origin. No pure motives from the top down and I will bet the farm that it was a top down deal. we won't know the truth until a court orders all the documents/emails in question to be produced to congress.
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Old September 20, 2012, 08:53 PM   #2610
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The investigation is notable in what was not addressed.

1. The FBI involvement in allowing the purchases.
2. None of the players in the WH were allowed to be interviewed. We know that at least one NSC Staffer had knowledge of the operation from e-mails which have been linked in this post.
4. There news reports which indicate that Secretary of State Clinton's Assistant was present when Fast and Furious was discussed. One report indicates that she pointed left the room when the Subject came up.

This is a total white wash and will unravel if Issa continues to pursue it. I am writing my Congressman (Gossar) who is on the committee and expressing my disbelief.

4. I strongly urge each of the members of this forum to write their Congressman and respectively expressing their disbelief and requesting that the investigation continue.
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Old September 20, 2012, 09:35 PM   #2611
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I thought, that in one of the last few posts, the writer mentioned that this business was intended to promote restrictions on "assault weapons", words to that effect. I cannot now find the particular post, so I might be all wet on that.

That being said, real "assault weapons" spelled selective fire weapons are already restricted in federal law, and have been since 1934 (NFA of 1934). state laws, being another story, vary.

As to other aspects, cover up on coverup on coverup, followed by obfuscation. It keeps going round.
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Old September 21, 2012, 01:11 AM   #2612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmortimer
(sorry if I am missing your sarcasm)
Why did I bother putting that little guy with the shades and the smirk in my post?

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Old September 21, 2012, 07:13 AM   #2613
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IG Essentially Accuses White House of Stonewalling

The IG testified yesterday at a hearing by the House Oversight Committee. According to one news story:
Quote:
The White House’s refusal to release communications related to the Fast and Furious gun-walking program and the refusal of a White House official to be interviewed about the matter “made it impossible” for the inspector general (IG) of the Justice Department to “pursue that aspect of the case,” the IG, Michael Horowitz, testified.

He added that the sought-after White House interview and communications constituted “a lead we wanted to follow.”
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ig-w...-furious-probe

Now, the IG doesn't call it stonewalling but he wanted to pursue WH links and they declined interviews. I'll be interested to see if this angle interests any of the mainstream press.
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Old September 21, 2012, 08:09 AM   #2614
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Here is some more IG testimony that is going to be a problem for Lanny Breuer:

"Asked by several Republican lawmakers at the hearing whether reading the wiretap applications would have indicated that guns were being "walked," the tactic employed in Fast and Furious, Horowitz said "yes."

He then added a more nuanced version included in the report, that someone "who was focused on the question of investigative tactics, particularly one who was already sensitive to the issue of 'gun walking,'" would have "questions about ATF's conduct of the investigations."
(Source: http://www.rollcall.com/news/justice...ml?pos=htmbtxt)
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Old September 21, 2012, 12:03 PM   #2615
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Meanwhile, at least some in the MSM are paying attention.

ABC News' Jake Tapper points out Obama's ...er... "spin" on Fast & Furious being started under the Bush administration.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...dministration/
(For newcomers: Fast & Furious started in 2009 after Obama was in office. The Bush era program "Wide Receiver" (2006-2007) was much smaller and discontinued when guns couldn't be tracked south of the border. But this operation included the Mexican authorities, unlike F&F in which the Mexican gov't was kept in the dark.)
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Old September 21, 2012, 04:08 PM   #2616
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Alan, I think there was an agenda, to get a new AWB and anything else Obama, Holder and Hillary could get.

The UN Treaty on Small Arms looks "saner". Holder and others still talk about a new AWB, though more people died being beaten with fists than in all long gun fatalities of any sort in 2010-11.

IIRC, it was Newell who was chortling over border killings and what would happen "...when we pull the wraps off this baby...".

It cannot be that the failure of Wide Receiver was not documented. Why anyone would restart such an op and leave the Mexicans OUT, makes no sense if tracking weapons in Mexico was the goal. Also, the number of weapons...nobody had to send that many weapons in to prove tracking impossible. And no tracking devices, aborted surveillance, virtually no interdiction? Tracking either wasn't the goal or the people running the op are unable to feed themselves.

Given how many agencies are operating on the border aimed at the cartels in one way or another, I believe it impossible people didn't bump into each other and have their "turf battles" escalated to "management". Notably, the IG never talked to a lot of possible information sources.

Knowing what something isn't can be as informative as finding out what it is.

I posted in #1990 about how Holder floated the idea of a new AWB early in his tenure and had to retreat. F+F starts. Then comes the "90% of all guns come from the US" meme, repeated far and wide until debunked. IIRC, about then F+F shuts down and people begin to hide, though Calderon and some others keep yapping the meme...Calderone because he needs to export his problems in country to somone else, blame and bodies both. Then Terry is killed and the cat is really amongst the pigeons.

Unrelated in subject, but the progress of the "narrative" about Libya is a classic for Obama and Clinton. Like F+F, the story morphed from what they wanted it to be to something less flattering. These two did not start acting this way last week.
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Old September 21, 2012, 06:30 PM   #2617
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The other party had the majority in Congress and White House in 2009 yet failed to pass any assault weapons ban. Just have to wait and see how the election turns out. I am not surprised that AG Holder was found to be innocent of any wrong doing.
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Old September 22, 2012, 08:20 PM   #2618
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This has to be one of the first times I've heard a reporter ask the questions that no one in the main stream media has asked yet:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/20/ob...e-eric-holder/

Like:
Quote:
“...up to 100 Mexicans might have died and also American agent Brian Terry. There’s a report that 14 agents were responsible for the operation but shouldn’t the attorney general, Eric Holder, he should have known about that and if he didn’t, should you fire him?”

Quote:
“But if you have nothing to hide, then why are you not releasing papers to the –”
(The reporter was interupted by President Obama's rebuttal that they had released papers.
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Old September 22, 2012, 09:40 PM   #2619
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As always Obama did not answer the question but talked around it and placed the blame on the Bush administration.

Obama and his DOJ put their spin on this statement:
According to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 of the 29,000 guns that they recovered at crime scenes over a two year period and were submitted to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 of the 11,000 guns submitted were successfully traced -- and of those 6,000, 85 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.. The 18,000 (62%) that were not submitted for tracing were found to be from other countries. Of the 29,000 recovered 5,114 guns (17%) were proved to have been US produced.

Note: A large number of the 5,114 weapons were weapons that had been given to the Mexican government/Army by the US and were stolen or went lost with Mexican Army deserters.

Last edited by Chuckusaret; September 22, 2012 at 09:52 PM.
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Old September 22, 2012, 11:44 PM   #2620
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The question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86 View Post
Can they pardon him of stuff he has not been convicted of..... yet?
The answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris View Post
Yes. See Ford's pardon of Nixon.
Quite true.

As someone once stated about that event: (paraphrase) A pardon, once offered, is an affirmation of belief of guilt; and once accepted confirms it to be so.
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Old September 23, 2012, 07:47 AM   #2621
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Ok, so does this mean that Issa will fold his tent and call it a day? It's my understanding that the House has adjourned. Do/will they be back before the election?

And if so, what recourse is available?
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Old September 26, 2012, 07:00 PM   #2622
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Sooo back to my original point.

DOJ oversaw / ran this Op. at a District level and someone in the top three tiers (D.C.) knew about it and let it go on; at least that is what I get from the Report.

State Dept. "Left the room" when it was discussed; aka they "didn't want to know". By extension, the POTUS "was not informed and if so it was cursory and much later on. Again this is what the report leads us to believe.

Mexico wasn't informed; see State Dept.

No POTUS and no State Dept. = ITAR violations at the minimum. Mexico can also bring up various treaty violations depending on what we have signed with them directly as well as anything we are joint signatories on with the UN.

If State Dept. wanted to be "left out" as has been reported, then we have officials that were derelict in duty. So we get to clear some folks out of State as well as DOJ, BATFE, and possibly others.

So who will Obama's Olli North be?
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Old September 27, 2012, 10:48 AM   #2623
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In post 2615, HarrySchell states, "Alan, I think there was an agenda, to get a new AWB and anything else Obama, Holder and Hillary could get".

Obviously, this is the case, as usual, the anti gunners will take whatever they can get, correctly figuring that they can always come back for another bite, all bites coming out of the constitutional rights of the law abiding.

Past and ongoing fuss and furry over "assault weapons" and the banning thereof should be ;looked upon realistically, as what they are, another skirmish in the endless battle to maintain constitutional rights, no matter how much lipstick might be applied to the pig that is Gun Control.

Others here have spoken of the need to keep after our elected things, which is of course, something that needs to be done. Additionally, media contact, Letters To Editors are another thing needful of attention, though the above mentioned efforts can be discouraging.

It strikes me that should the current investigation into Operation F & F, as well as the culpability of other government agencies not be followed through on, we shall likely see something worse than recently experienced.
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Old September 27, 2012, 04:30 PM   #2624
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I would note two things to add to #2615:
++Newell was involved in both Wide Receiver and F+F according to the IG report. He had to know it failed and why.
++The evolution of the Benghazi "narrative" is turning out worse than I thought it would. "Unflattering" is no longer an adequate description.
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Old September 29, 2012, 08:31 PM   #2625
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It's sad that the media in Mexico is asking all the right questions

And the media here, for the most part has just turned it's back on Fast & Furious.

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/2...-fast-furious/

Univision's investigative reporters put together a documentary which airs tomorrow. We'll see what the mainstream media does with this...
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