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Old July 31, 2012, 02:06 PM   #2526
MLeake
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The article implied this report was specific to ATF, and that there would be a subsequent report specific to the DOJ cover-up and its participants.

Not sure if Burke will get mentioned in that one, when it is released.
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Old July 31, 2012, 04:46 PM   #2527
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The entire report is here [loooong pdf]. It is absolutely worth sitting down and reading.

Newell is mentioned, as are all the key players up to Breuer. However, this is part 1 of 3, and it keeps its focus on the Phoenix Division for the most part. There's a lot of testimony and documentation I haven't seen before.

It runs in chronological order. While the whole thing is unsettling, Chapter 14 (subtitled "“Ugh...things will most likely get ugly”) goes into new detail on the panic over the death of Brian Terry and the start of the coverup. Newell, Voth, and Burke are implicated by their own words.
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Old August 3, 2012, 01:34 PM   #2528
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William Hoover resigned from ATF apparently. His last day was Tuesday.
http://heraldnet.com/article/20120803/NEWS02/708039872
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Old August 3, 2012, 09:11 PM   #2529
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So, Hoover and Burke are the only ones to lose their jobs, and those were largely voluntary? I'm still not seeing the sting here.
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Old August 4, 2012, 01:58 AM   #2530
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If this is like corporate America, the announcement would have said Hoover has resigned "to pursue other opportunities".

Such as finding a good lawyer and preparing his defense.
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Old August 8, 2012, 08:14 PM   #2531
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Was Dennis Burke behind the whistle blower retaliation?

I don't know if this has been discussed before. But in this article covering the creation of a new DOJ "Whistleblower Ombudsman", Mike Levine says:

Quote:
In June 2011, Forcelli told the House panel investigating the matter that "grave mistakes" had been made. But when he voiced concern to supervisors, those "concerns were dismissed," he said.

After that testimony, prosecutors in Arizona "made false accusations in an effort to discredit me," Forcelli told Fox News.
I don't know why he doesn't just name Dennis Burke. What other procecutor in Arizona would launch a punative attack on someone who testified about F&F?


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...-wake-furious/
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Old August 8, 2012, 10:03 PM   #2532
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As above, but from the Boise State NPR:

Fast And Furious Whistle-blower Reaches Agreement Over Retaliation Claims

Quote:
Peter Forcelli, an ATF agent who blew the whistle on management lapses in the gun trafficking scandal known as Fast and Furious, has reached an agreement with the bureau over his retaliation claims. ...

"We can't reveal the details but Mr. Forcelli's smile could not be broader," lawyer Tom Devine, of the Government Accountability Project, told NPR in an interview. "This outcome was a 180 degree reversal by new management... This dispute is over."
According to the article, this attorney is also representing another ATF agent, Larry Alt.

And did you check out the last paragraph of the article which links another F&F firearm to a conspiracy to assassinate the Tijuana police chief?
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Old August 9, 2012, 08:12 AM   #2533
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The article says that a lawsuit is being prepared against BATFE. I wonder who the plaintiffs are?

Well whoever they are - they have a winner. First of all, what the feds did was wrong - I know that's an over-generalization, but I'm just saying, they'll lose the case because what they did was wrong and they got people killed.

And secondly, as hard as it would be to try to defend their actions, they have the issue of discovery to deal with. U.S. DOJ and the current administration obviously does not want information on F&F to come to light, they won't turn over any documents to the defense. I'm guessing the lawsuit is about money - not necesarily getting to the truth. I guess it depends on if the current administration stays in office, but if it does, the federal government will just pay it.
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Old August 9, 2012, 01:41 PM   #2534
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Once the paperwork is finalized and the check is cut, maybe a FOI request could reveal the terms. I'm more familiar with my state's version of the statute and it is essentially impossible for government to confidentially settle a lawsuit.
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Old August 9, 2012, 04:42 PM   #2535
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An F&F gun was used in a conspiracy murder the Tijuana police chief.


http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_2...e=most_emailed

Quote:
A weapon tied to "Operation Fast and Furious" was seized in Tijuana in connection with a drug cartel's conspiracy to kill the police chief of Tijuana, Baja California, who later became the Juárez police chief, according to a U.S. government report.

The firearm was found Feb. 25, 2010, during an arrest of a criminal cell associated with Teodoro "El Teo" García Simental and Raydel "El Muletas" López Uriarte, allies of the Sinaloa cartel.

Tijuana police said they arrested four suspects in March 2010 in connection with a failed attempt to take out Julián Leyzaola, and that the suspects allegedly confessed to conspiring to assassinate the police chief on orders from Tijuana cartel leaders.

The suspects had an arsenal of weapons and ammunition, and one of the firearms traced back to the operation that the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives (ATF) was monitoring from its field office in Phoenix.
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Old August 9, 2012, 10:10 PM   #2536
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Tom Servo wrote:

So, Hoover and Burke are the only ones to lose their jobs, and those were largely voluntary? I'm still not seeing the sting here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom:

Don't hold your breath waiting.

As for other aspects, a law suit being filed against BATFE, see post 2533, I wonder as to the following. Should monetary damages be awarded to the complainant party or parties, who other than the innocent, they being here the taxpayers will supply the monies awarded. By the way, haven't the taxpayers already been hit up, having paid for those illegally purchased firearms, or some of them?
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Old August 13, 2012, 02:23 PM   #2537
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Word comes today that Issa is filing a lawsuit to compel compliance.
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Old August 14, 2012, 04:13 PM   #2538
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Tom Servo:

Re this law suit, there was a front page story/article on it in today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Strikes me that the ending of this latest action, how the courts rule in the issues brought will be most interesting to view.
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Old August 14, 2012, 05:22 PM   #2539
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Two thousand five hundred thirty eight posts on TFL, countless Congressional hearings, a Contempt of Congress vote, and now a civil lawsuit!

And not one single charge has been filed in a court of law against a single person for breaking federal law for knowingly selling firearms to a prohibited person.

This is the real travasty here!

Law does not apply equally if someone at ATF or DOJ says so.

Simple.
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Old August 14, 2012, 07:46 PM   #2540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyoredman
Two thousand five hundred thirty eight posts on TFL, countless Congressional hearings, a Contempt of Congress vote, and now a civil lawsuit!
And a Federal law enforcement agent killed with one of the firearms sold illegally with the support and encouragement of the BATFE and the DOJ.

Quote:
And not one single charge has been filed in a court of law against a single person for breaking federal law for knowingly selling firearms to a prohibited person.

This is the real travasty here!
Agreed.
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Old August 14, 2012, 09:04 PM   #2541
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Quote:
Two thousand five hundred thirty eight posts on TFL, countless Congressional hearings, a Contempt of Congress vote, and now a civil lawsuit!
Amazing what happens in a culture of "we have a higher level of knowledge"

Murder is still murder last I checked....
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Old August 14, 2012, 09:59 PM   #2542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGutzman
Murder is still murder last I checked....
True, but the actual murder was committed by the person or persons who were on the other side in the gunfight that killed Agent Terry.

However, any and all of the BATFE agents who knowingly and willingly participated in allowing (and encouraging, and facilitating) the illegal sales of the firearms used and the transportation of those firearms across an international border contrary to U.S. law, Mexican law, and international law, most assuredly should be charged with conspiracy to commit various firearms offenses; with being an accessory to various firearms offenses; with aiding and abetting the commission of various firearms offenses; and possibly with being accessories to the murder of Agent Terry.

They should NOT be allowed to hide behind "the Agency told me to do it, I was only following orders." That approach was discredited at Nuremberg, it should not be allowed here in the U.S. Further, if any of the BATFE people involved were ever in the military, they should know that under the UCMJ a soldier not only does not have to follow an unlawful order, he/she is required to disobey the unlawful order and to report it up the chain of command.

Quote:
Seems like pretty good motivation to obey any order you're given, right? Nope. These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/milit...yingorders.htm

I fully understand that the BATFE is not operating under the UCMJ, but the principle that one cannot hide behind an order to commit a crime should certainly translate into the DOJ itself.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 15, 2012 at 05:05 AM.
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:17 PM   #2543
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That raises the question of whether agents are acting unlawfully when they receive approval to allow the straw purchases (the whole Fast and Furious operation). Think in terms of the DEA allowing drug purchases to proceed or using undercover agents or cooperating witnesses to make sales or purchases. The transactions would be unlawful if not done for law enforcement purposes. Would not the same be true for ATF agents? I understand the difference between drugs and guns and how Fast and Furious was so miserably planned. But does that make it unlawful?
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:38 PM   #2544
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Wyoredman wrote:

Two thousand five hundred thirty eight posts on TFL, countless Congressional hearings, a Contempt of Congress vote, and now a civil lawsuit!

And not one single charge has been filed in a court of law against a single person for breaking federal law for knowingly selling firearms to a prohibited person.

This is the real travasty here!

Law does not apply equally if someone at ATF or DOJ says so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could be wrong here, but the above post strikes me as one of the shorter, certainly one of the more cogent seen here, on Operation Fast & Furioius.
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Old August 15, 2012, 10:47 PM   #2545
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Former Assistant Secretary of Defense of Mexico & generals indicted for drug smugglin

Quote:
Six high-ranking members of the Mexican army, including four generals, have been formally charged with collaborating with drug traffickers

http://www.insightcrime.org/insight-...ug-trafficking

You wonder how 26% of the weapons that the Mexican Army procured through the Direct Commercial Sales program wound up with the cartels... well now you now.

I haven't seen this story covered by any of the major U.S. news outlets (if someone else can find a story - then by all means prove me wrong), but I don't get how no one in the media can connect the dots back to our own State Department.

The traffiking obviously went on since F&F did move weapons, but I wonder if BATFE hadn't been making it so easy and in some cases even pushing it... I wonder how many guns would have actually moved to the cartels from legitimate gun dealerss.

Looking at the high level of cooperation between the cartels and the Army, I think its ludicrous to say that the cartles were arming themselves via straw purchases.
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Old August 15, 2012, 11:09 PM   #2546
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Here is the filing: PDF Document
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Old August 16, 2012, 11:09 PM   #2547
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Seems to get "interestinger and interestinger", in particular respecting Luger carbine's post 2545.

I guess that corruption in Mexico is atttibutal to "lax U.S. gun laws" too and that reenstatement of the Clinton era so-called Assault Weapons Ban would immediately cure all the ills of the world, split ends and hangnails too.
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Old August 26, 2012, 05:57 PM   #2548
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This Facebook group "Remember Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry" does a great job of hitting the main points concerning Fast & Furious, and they do a great job of keeping the message clear and on-track. I follow this group on Facebook and I am impressed with how well they get the message across.

They republished the NRA's "TEN FACTS EVERY VOTER MUST KNOW ABOUT BARACK OBAMA’S FAST AND FURIOUS SCANDAL" (a great doc that captures the most important things about F&F IMO) and I think it's more effective coming from the "Remember Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry" Facebook group than from the normal NRA outlets.

http://graphics.nra.org/chriscox/ILA...sFactSheet.pdf
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Old August 29, 2012, 08:55 AM   #2549
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CBS News (Sharyl Attkisson): Exclusive: Fast and Furious IG report slams ATF Phoenix personnel

So it appears, at first blush, that the entire Phoenix ATF office is to be thrown under the bus. Meanwhile, Issa has called the IG Michael Horowitz to a Capitol Hill hearing on Sept. 11th. http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...pitol-hill-se/
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Old August 29, 2012, 12:01 PM   #2550
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Is anyone surprised the IG would blame all of it on the Phoenix office? And, with the report set to be released "in a few weeks," that will be just enough time to use it to refute allegations before election but not enough time to thoroughly poke holes in its conclusions.
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