The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 6, 2012, 09:40 AM   #2476
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 377
Quote:
you can bet the shredders will be running 24/7 at the DOJ.
The thing that got Nixon was the cover-up, as is the case in so many of these things, it's the various and assorted illegalities associated with a cover up that earn people convictions, ie: destroying evidence, tampering with evidence, witness tampering, perjury, obstruction of justice, etc...

I suppose people have different goals in mind for what they'd like to see.

I'd like to find out if indeed the NRA's accusation is true, that people came up with a scheme to allow guns to get into the hands of cartel members primarily to bolster the idea that guns from U.S gun stores were arming the Mexican cartels - as a prelude to calling for stricter gun control laws.

That is the crux of the issue for me because if that charge is true, an entire agency of the U.S. governement was used (or allowed itself to be used) in a conspiracy to lie to and manipulate the American people.

That, to me is huge. That to me is the most important issue that must be addressed.

If true, all of the people in the conspiracy should be brought to justice so that Fast & Furious is the precedent for what happens when politicians / appointees / federal employees conspire to use the pwoer of the federal government against the American people.

Will any of that happen? Maybe not, probably not. But that is more important to me than whether Barrack Obama gets reelected, or this party or that gets control of the Senate or the House.

Last edited by Luger_carbine; July 6, 2012 at 10:04 AM.
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 12:41 PM   #2477
jimpeel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,458
The administration claimed that most of the firearms traces coming pout of Mexico were for firearms which originated in the United States and they called for more stringent controls. When it was found that their claims were false they needed to save face, and their scheme, by bolstering the numbers. The solution was to make the numbers match the claim.

<Captain Picard> "Make it so, Number One." </Captain Picard>

<First Officer> "Aye, aye. Right away, Sir." </First Officer>

Guess who's the Captain and who's the First Officer.
__________________
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
jimpeel is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 04:08 PM   #2478
Baba Louie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
The thing that got Nixon was the cover-up,...
Add to that, John Dean's testimony, a democratic congress and two honest to god investigative reporters who had a boss that didn't care for RMN so much. Dean's testimony is what sank Nixon IMO. He could have weathered the others, maybe even the missing 18 minutes, until his 2nd term was over. But an insider who knew the real facts of the coverup and was willing to uphold what little honor he had left by coming forward... history in the making.

I don't know of too many elected and/or appointed officials or bureaucrats in DC that understand the concept of honor, let alone duty or country nowadays. Hopefully there is at least one, but no one seems to be forthcoming.

Sad that. We need a John Dean.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
Baba Louie is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 04:18 PM   #2479
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luger carbine
I'd like to find out if indeed the NRA's accusation is true, that people came up with a scheme to allow guns to get into the hands of cartel members primarily to bolster the idea that guns from U.S gun stores were arming the Mexican cartels - as a prelude to calling for stricter gun control laws.

That is the crux of the issue for me because if that charge is true, an entire agency of the U.S. government was used (or allowed itself to be used) in a conspiracy to lie to and manipulate the American people.
I have no proof other than circumstantial, but that was my belief from the moment the news broke, and it didn't take the NRA to convince me. Look at the evidence:

As jimpeel points out, the administration was trying to claim that the Mexican cartels were arming themselves primarily through illegal purchases at American gun stores, but they didn't have data to support the claim.

The administration continues to claim that the "intent" of F&F was to "track" the guns across the border to cartel kingpins. How many ways does this claim NOT make sense?
  • Drug cartel bigshots don't do their own killing. They have "soldiers" for that. So how were these guns supposed to get to the bigshots? And, if they did, how were the Feds going to prove it?
  • The BATFE did NOT inform either their Mexican counterparts or even our own BATFE agents in Mexico that Operation F&F was in progress. Just exactly how could they track (note, they say "track," not "trace") the guns to the kingpins when the people in position to do whatever tracking might be (or probably isn't) possible don't know there are any guns to be tracked?
  • Many of the firearms used in Mexican crimes that have been recovered and traced (not "tracked") to U.S. origins are actually full-auto assault rifles (real assault rifles, not semi-auto sporting rifles with scary back furniture) that could not have been bought by straw buyers in American gun shops. However, they could be (and were) sold to the Mexican government for use by their military and police. The administration doesn't talk about that.
Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest solution is probably the correct solution. Offer another explanation -- ANY other explanation -- that fits the facts as well as the theory that the administration walked the guns to create statistics supporting their claims about the U.S. arming the cartels. I don't think you can possibly come up with any other theory that comes even close to this for adequately fitting the facts.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 6, 2012, 06:21 PM   #2480
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,876
Quote:
I'd like to find out if indeed the NRA's accusation is true, that people came up with a scheme to allow guns to get into the hands of cartel members primarily to bolster the idea that guns from U.S gun stores were arming the Mexican cartels - as a prelude to calling for stricter gun control laws.
Well, to my mind the only two possible explanations for F&F are either the NRA's accusations, or an incredible degree of stupidity within DOJ. To understand this, let's look at the history prior to F&F.

The precursor to F&F was Operation Wide Receiver which was undertaken during the Bush (43) Administration. Key differences between Fast & Furious and Wide Receiver are than "walked" guns from WR had tracking devices installed in them and WR was coordinated with the Mexican Gov't. WR was a failure because the cartels discovered and removed the tracking devices and thus the "walked" guns were lost. WR was shut down in 2007 due to the "walked" guns being lost.

F&F, on the other hand, did not begin until 2009 after the Obama administration had taken over. Rather than attempt to find better ways of tracking the guns and coordinating with the Mexican Gov't, the ATF under the new administration decided to abandon the two attributes of WR that allowed the guns to be tracked at all.

Now, I fail to see how anyone of even moderate intelligence can think that repeating a failed sting operation without any attempt to track the contraband will work any better than the original operation, or even as well for that matter. While government bureaucrats aren't exactly known as shining beacons of genius, I have a hard time believing that so many people so far up the proverbial food chain could be so abjectly stupid.

Add to the fact that both Secretary of State Clinton and Attorney General Holder called for gun control due to violence in Mexico in early 2009 and were "hushed" about the issue by the administration, the famous quote of former Chief of Staff (and current mayor of Chicago) Rahm Emmanuel "never let a good crisis go to waste", and the allusion by the President that new gun control efforts were in the works (though he characteristically failed to mention specifics) and I think that the true intent of F&F becomes fairly obvious.

The problem is, intent is an extremely difficult thing to prove. Unless evidence of someone very high up in the administration or DOJ specifically stating that F&F's goal was to drum up public support for gun control can be produced (unlikely), then the President, Attorney General, Secretary of State, and Secretary of Homeland Security all still have a certain degree of plausible deniability.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old July 7, 2012, 10:17 AM   #2481
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,628
The UN treaty has been discussed before. Please search on the topic as it is not relevant to the F and F thread. We also don't need a new thread on the treaty.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old July 8, 2012, 10:35 PM   #2482
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
Luger_carbine:

I suspect your comments in what might have been your last post, #2476regarding the origin, the impetus and the blame for the screw-up that is and was Operation F & F are essentially on the mark. Problem is in so proving, for if allegations were proven, a bunch of people would be going to jail.

As to how many of them would be in line for presidential pardons, that might be the question of the year. I wonder also as to the following. Can the president pardon himself?
alan is offline  
Old July 9, 2012, 02:41 PM   #2483
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,876
Quote:
I wonder also as to the following. Can the president pardon himself?
Article II Section 2 of the Constitution states that the President "shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." Emphasis Added. President Ford set the precedent that pardons can be granted even if the recipient of the pardon has not yet been convicted, of even charged, with a crime, so the only way a President might be able to pardon himself would have to proactively pardon himself for crimes that he's not yet been charged with (the President cannot be charged with a crime while still in office). However, if impeachment proceedings were brought before the President pardoned himself, then his only option would be to convince the Vice President to pardon him upon taking office as was most likely the case with President Nixon and then-Vice President Ford.

All this being said, the chances of President Obama pardoning himself for F&F are, IMHO, extremely small. First, I find it doubtful that there is enough evidence to prove that the President was involved in or had direct knowledge of F&F. Secondly, pardoning himself would be, in effect, an admission of guilt that would be, at the very least, politically damaging in the extreme. Finally, the President pardoning himself is a political stunt that's never even been attempted before and may not even fly in the first place (I have a feeling that if it did, Nixon would've probably proactively pardoned himself before leaving office).
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old July 9, 2012, 02:55 PM   #2484
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,628
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78243.html

Five charge in Agent's death.

Interesting to see what the trial says about the guns' origins. Esp. given that piece in Fortune.

It would seem to me that the trial would highlight the problems of F and F.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old July 9, 2012, 06:10 PM   #2485
HarrySchell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2007
Location: South CA
Posts: 549
It won't come to trial. The perps will never be caught. At least some are buried already, I guess. The trial also is about murder. The perps can be tied to the weapons, maybe, without a lot of discussion or any comebacks as to how they got them. The focus will have to be on what they did with the weapons.

This means nothing. It's a herring, a smelly red one.
__________________
Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will.
— Mark Twain
HarrySchell is offline  
Old July 9, 2012, 07:44 PM   #2486
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,078
Quote:
The focus will have to be on what they did with the weapons.
At least two Fast and Furious guns were found at the scene of Terrys murder. By some accounts there were three, including an SKS that came from another area.

Some e-mails were obtained by CBS. One of those e-mails reported four perps in custody:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/at...in;contentBody

From a tape given to CBS:

Quote:
“Agent: Well there was two.

Dealer: There's three weapons.


Agent: There's three weapons.


Dealer: I know that.


Agent: And yes, there's serial numbers for all three.


Dealer: That's correct.


Agent: Two of them came from this store.


Dealer: I understand that.


Agent: There's an SKS that I don't think came from.... Dallas or Texas or something like that.


Dealer: I know. talking about the AK's


Agent: The two AK's came from this store.


Dealer: I know that.


Agent: Ok.


Dealer: I did the Goddamned trace


Agent: Third weapon is the SKS has nothing to do with it.


Dealer: That didn't come from me.


Agent: No and there is that's my knowledge. and I spoke to someone who would know those are the only ones they have. So this is the agent who's working the case, all I can go by is what she told me.
thallub is offline  
Old July 9, 2012, 08:52 PM   #2487
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 377
Interesting CNN / Orc Intl poll on Holder / F&F & Executive Privledge

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...7/09/rel6d.pdf

Holder's favorable rating actually went up from 2009, but his unfavorable rating went up by a greater margin.

The poll question that stands out for me:

Quote:
In the congressional investigation of Operation Fast and Furious, in your view, should President Obama and his aides continue to invoke executive privilege to protect the White House decision making process, or should they drop the claim of executive privilege and answer all questions being investigated?
Answer all questions = 69%

It always comes down to that doesn't it? If everything is as they say it is and there is nothing to hide then why not just turn over the documents?
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 06:07 AM   #2488
scpapa
Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2007
Location: Central South Carolina
Posts: 68
^^^^ Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?"
If I have nothing to hide, I can still invoke my rights. In this case it's a privilage, but the same idea.

Rick
__________________
NRA Training Counselor
NRA Advanced Pistol Instructor
NRA RTBAV Regional Counselor
NRA Benefactor Member
scpapa is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 06:27 AM   #2489
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,155
Quote:
^^^^ Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?" If I have nothing to hide, I can still invoke my rights. In this case it's a privilage, but the same idea.
Respectfully, I disagree. Exercising a right is not the same idea as invoking privilege.

We all have the same rights under the constitution. Only POTUS can invoke Executive Privilege. And since POTUS has also stated publicly that he had no knowledge of F&F, it appears that he is hiding the work of others, not himself. Not what privilege was supposed to do, is it?
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearm Safety and Pistol Instructor
"There are three classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see."
Leonardo da Vinci
CowTowner is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 08:31 AM   #2490
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 377
Quote:
Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?"
It's different on another point also - and that is one of scope.

Congress isn't asking for access to rumage around in all of DOJ's files and through their entire e-mail system, they are asking for a specific set of documents, a finite number and within a certain date range.
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:49 AM   #2491
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 377
AG Holder claimed that they had turned over relevant documents... there is this whole spin doctoring of whether DOJ cooperated or not...

It would have helped their PR cause if more docs had been turned over. When they talk about the 7,600 documents they turned over - they make it sound like it was a herculean effort to produce an encyclopedic trove of documents. They're doing the best they can with it but it's lipstick on a pig considering the number of documents requested.

IMO, the bulk of the documents requested contain damaging evidence. If DOJ could have turned over any more documents to bolster their claim of cooperation - they certainly would have.
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 09:50 AM   #2492
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 377
Wow, there is a Fast & Furious website now:

http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 10:54 AM   #2493
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,222
Quote:
Wow, there is a Fast & Furious website now
That's been up for awhile. This was a good time for a bump, though.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 11:26 AM   #2494
Luger_carbine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2012
Posts: 377
I couldn't remember how many documents congress requested so I was Googling it, and this is the first time that the Fast & Furious site came up in my search.

I don't know how Google ranks their searches, but it seems to me that the site is moving up in the rankings for where it appears in a search.

I just typed "Fast and Furious documents" and the website was the third entry listed.
Luger_carbine is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 01:29 PM   #2495
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,078
The house oversight committee website has been up for over one year.
thallub is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 05:29 PM   #2496
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,659
DOJ has turned over 7600 instruments to the Oversight Committee, some so heavily redacted (entire pages blacked out) that even Jon Stewart on the Daily Show was making jokes about it.

At the same time, DOJ turned over 80000 documents to the DOJ IG. DOJ has claimed they have provided all relevant documents to Congress but have repeatedly failed to account for this discrepancy or even turn over a privilege log (when you claim a privilege not to turn over documents in a court room, you must identify via a short description what documents you are withholding and the legal privilege you are claiming protects them).
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 05:31 PM   #2497
rgrundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
The feds recently indicted 5 in the murder of Brian Terry and are looking for 4 of them. What I do not understand is that they originally arrested at least 4 on the spot and were looking for 1 more so what did they do let them go at some point? I'm not understanding what's going on. Are these indicments for some other charges?

http://borderissues.us/2010/12/16/fi...-agents-death/

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...n-arrests-made

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/four...r-patrol-agent
rgrundy is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 07:17 PM   #2498
alan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 1999
Posts: 3,745
Bartholomew Roberts:

Re your comments in post # 2496, the smell of rotten fish, coming from DOJ grows stronger by the second.
alan is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 10:04 PM   #2499
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,078
Quote:
What I do not understand is that they originally arrested at least 4 on the spot and were looking for 1 more so what did they do let them go at some point?
+1
i had the same question. Wonder what the FBI did with the third gun; an SKS?
thallub is offline  
Old July 10, 2012, 10:15 PM   #2500
rgrundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2012
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
It gets better, most of the guys they got on the spot were not chagred but deported.
http://www.texasgopvote.com/us-attor...ut-town-002516
rgrundy is offline  
Reply

Tags
atf , fast and furious

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.47784 seconds with 8 queries