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Old January 9, 2016, 01:21 PM   #1
CCWBeliever
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New Permit Holder Question

Just received my concealed carry permit, and I'm starting to carry and get used to having a firearm on my person at all times (at least when I can.)

Here is one of probably many questions:

It seems a little tricky to always know if I'm in/on property where it's lawful to carry. For example, I'm visiting my son at college this weekend and the campus is "no carry." I don't exactly know where the campus boundaries and jurisdiction are.

q: When you are not entirely sure if the property is "concealed carry friendly" or not, is it better to go ahead and carry concealed and deal with the consequences if you had to defend your life? Seems like the "soft target" places such as movie theaters, malls, campuses, etc. are the most likely places you migh have to use your firearm to protect yourself or your loved one.

Thoughts?
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Old January 9, 2016, 02:03 PM   #2
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A lot depends on the state and local laws. Tell us where you are and you can get better input
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Old January 10, 2016, 12:10 PM   #3
kilimanjaro
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I would avoid entering any public school with a firearm unless it's expressly legal to do so in your state.

Once you turn off the public street into the parking area at the school, you're probably on campus and will remain on campus until you drive out at the end of the visit.
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Old January 10, 2016, 02:31 PM   #4
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Repetition (reading more than once) is good for the memory. Become familiar with the state and local laws, and read them repeated times during each review session. Revisit them from a reliable (updated) source(s) more than once per year.

Many door entrances where it is prohibited will display a large sign in a prominent place for those locations that may not be listed in your usual updated, source(s) of information.

It's our responsibility to keep within the law, and not step out of bounds.
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Old January 10, 2016, 05:38 PM   #5
DaleA
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Quote:
Become familiar with the state and local laws
Welcome to The Firing Line. Not to be a jerk about this but it’s up to you to know what your state and local laws about carry are all about.
Can you go into a bar?
Can you go into a restaurant that serves liquor?
Can you have ONE drink while carrying?
Does locking your gun in your car satisfy ‘not carrying’ in banned locations?

On the other hand there you certainly wouldn't be the 'Lone Ranger' for NOT knowing this stuff...I was totally amazed at all the people that have been stopped at airports carrying a gun. I’m talking about the ones that had no intention of doing anything wrong they just ‘forgot’….(how can you DO that?) Well apparently in 2014 TSA reported finding SIX guns in carry-on baggage PER DAY!!!

http://blog.tsa.gov/2015/01/tsa-2014...in-review.html

(That’s a hard number to believe…2,212.)

Last edited by DaleA; January 10, 2016 at 05:46 PM.
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Old January 10, 2016, 06:37 PM   #6
Koda94
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Quote:
Just received my concealed carry permit, and I'm starting to carry and get used to having a firearm on my person at all times (at least when I can.)

Here is one of probably many questions:

It seems a little tricky to always know if I'm in/on property where it's lawful to carry. For example, I'm visiting my son at college this weekend and the campus is "no carry." I don't exactly know where the campus boundaries and jurisdiction are.

q: When you are not entirely sure if the property is "concealed carry friendly" or not, is it better to go ahead and carry concealed and deal with the consequences if you had to defend your life? Seems like the "soft target" places such as movie theaters, malls, campuses, etc. are the most likely places you migh have to use your firearm to protect yourself or your loved one.

Thoughts?
it all depends on the laws in your state, Check out handgunlaw.us for your state...
Campus boundaries are everything on their land property, some states prohibit carry on college campuses others do not but campus policy can. For public schools the law includes out to 1000 feet past the property as a school zone. Places of businesses like movies, malls, stores depend on the law of the state your in... in some states its illegal if the business puts up a no guns sign, in other states its not regardless of a sign. If your not certain of the law, its better to not carry as your chance of needing your gun is less than your chance of being caught with it.
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Old January 11, 2016, 06:47 AM   #7
Spats McGee
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Visit handgunlaw.us to get better bead on what your state law allows or doesn't allow.

Also be aware that some jurisdictions allow cities or counties to set some of their own rules. Visit municode.com to see if your city's municipal code is posted there. Otherwise, call your city clerk if you're in one of the jurisdictions where ordinances restricting carry are allowed by state law.
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Old January 12, 2016, 10:57 AM   #8
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Thank you!

Thank you for the replies. I live in Tennessee and was traveling in Alabama over the weekend. I have lots of questions and it looks like it's a very dynamic issue.

It's absolutely ridiculous that from moment to moment, I don't know if I'm legally carrying or not...all while I have a perfectly legal permit. I guess as long as I'm in my car, I'm fine. It's when I step out of my car that I need to know where I am and where I'm going.

I like the comment that it's more likely I'll be "caught with it" than it is that I'll actually need it. But that comment almost make me ask... "What's the point?" Why did I bother getting a concealed carry permit to begin with, if I cannot carry it to the majority of places where I really want it.

For example... I went to a movie over the weekend with my family. Sitting in the theater, I'm increasingly aware of the fact that the exits there are located in positions that effectively have us trapped. Just like the Colorado shootings, if someone were to come into the theater and threaten us, we're trapped. Yet the sign outside the theater clearly states that guns are not allowed.

I've invested in the training, the permit, a good firearm, ammunition, practice at the range, a good gun belt, several good holsters for various carry scenarios....etc. Yet. It seems I may more have a problem with getting caught carrying my gun where I shouldn't versus having it on me when I actually may need it.

So... What's the point? Does it come down to just making a statement about my 2nd amendment rights? If so... I don't know that I needed to invest all this time and money into doing just that. I want to be ready to protect myself and my family (not in that order) if/when I may need to. But it appears that there are a lot of things working against me to be able to do that.

Ok... My rant is over... Guess everyone else is in the same position?
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Old January 12, 2016, 01:02 PM   #9
kilimanjaro
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We're all in the same position.

Walk inside the Post Office with your piece, you could be in trouble.
Drop the kids off at school and they want you to walk them to the class, you could be in trouble.
Go to a movie? Don't get caught.
Get a beer after work with the guys? Maybe not a good idea.

These are situations where deep concealed carry is the way to go. But don't drink the beer, get a soda.
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Old January 12, 2016, 02:36 PM   #10
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I'm beginning to understand more and more what the issues are. It's frustrating that I cannot carry a personal firearm wherever I want.
  1. Criminals will disregard rules about where firearms are not allowed. Ignoring rules and laws is one of the main reasons we call them criminals.
  2. In order to get my permit and purchase a firearm, I have been through at least 2 background checks, fingerprinted, and had some training.
  3. Advertising that you do not allow guns is equivalent to saying "good chance no one here will fight back if you want to rob or shoot us. you have until the police arrive to do your thing, if they even get notified"

I can only guess that it's ignorance, or lack of thinking it through that would cause any corporate or private business owner to post such a notice.

I may print up a generic letter that points out these issues, and then whenever i see a place that posts "no handguns" signs or wording, I can give it to the owner or manager. It won't be disrespectful, but will simply point out the flawed logic in the decision to post something like that. Is this a stupid idea?

Thoughts?
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Old January 13, 2016, 12:43 PM   #11
kilimanjaro
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It would do more good if your letter just said you will not be doing business there due to their policy. Then turn around and leave.

They absolutely will not care about your letter, but the loss of business may make them think.
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Old January 13, 2016, 11:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
I may print up a generic letter that points out these issues, and then whenever i see a place that posts "no handguns" signs or wording, I can give it to the owner or manager. It won't be disrespectful, but will simply point out the flawed logic in the decision to post something like that. Is this a stupid idea?

Thoughts?
this is an excellent idea the more that do it the better. Some people carry business size cards to hand out... https://snoballs.files.wordpress.com...oney.gif?w=538



Quote:
I like the comment that it's more likely I'll be "caught with it" than it is that I'll actually need it. But that comment almost make me ask... "What's the point?" Why did I bother getting a concealed carry permit to begin with, if I cannot carry it to the majority of places where I really want it.
I do hear what your saying and dont disagree but to clarify my point was in response to your question about should you still carry in locations you were uncertain about legal carry even with a permit... IMO no. Were not talking about a traffic infraction here where you pay a ticket and move on, the consequences of illegal carry are far greater in many places there are several examples of honest people getting caught and becoming felons over it.... If your not confident in the law then your better off not carrying. Same for use of force laws BTW....
again check the laws in your state (or travel locations) and get very familiar with them and you might find more freedom to carry. If signs don’t carry the force of the law then CC wherever you want like the movies.
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Old January 14, 2016, 05:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWBeliever
. . . .I can only guess that it's ignorance, or lack of thinking it through that would cause any corporate or private business owner to post such a notice. . . .
More likely, a business posts a notice in an attempt to limit its own liability, should something go awry with someone carrying in said business.
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Old January 14, 2016, 06:45 PM   #14
Koda94
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I agree with CCWBeliever about posting such a policy. Ive never understood how a company could be held liable for not having a no guns policy.
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Old January 15, 2016, 07:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWBeliever
. . . .I can only guess that it's ignorance, or lack of thinking it through that would cause any corporate or private business owner to post such a notice. . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koda94
I agree with CCWBeliever about posting such a policy. Ive never understood how a company could be held liable for not having a no guns policy.
The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make the business owner's actions ignorant.

Whether a business would ultimately be held liable is fact-specific. Nonetheless, if a CC-er were to shoot someone in a business, the argument goes something like this: (1) The business owed a duty of reasonable care for its customers; (2) the business breached that duty by allowing CC in the business; and (3) as a direct and proximate result of that breach, the Plaintiff was injured. Whether the Plaintiff can prove those things is a separate question, but that's the basic structure of a negligence argument.

Also worthy of consideration is the separate question of the cost of defense. Even if the Plaintiff ultimately loses the case, the Defendant will often still have to bear the cost of defending itself. Consider the two following possibilities:
(1) The business allows CC, is sued, and defending the suit includes the filing of an answer, discovery, depositions and, eventually a motion for summary judgment and a hearing on the msj; or
(2) The business bans CC, is sued, and defending the suit includes a motion to dismiss and a hearing on that.

For those of you unfamiliar with litigation, #2 is far cheaper.
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Old January 15, 2016, 11:53 AM   #16
Koda94
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(2) the business breached that duty by allowing CC in the business;
Spats, I never said that. I never said that a company should specifically amend their policy to specifically allow concealed carry. Plenty of companies avoid mentioning guns at all and simply state to follow the laws.... (Kroger, Home Depot...) are these companies any more liable to being sued than other companies that specifically make their policy a gun free zone for liability reasons?
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Old January 15, 2016, 12:16 PM   #17
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Koda, I know you didn't say that. It's one of the basic elements of a negligence claim, though.
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Old January 18, 2016, 08:16 AM   #18
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Welcome to the CCW club!

I've had my CPL for more than a few years now and I've learned some pretty good lessons. The first is to always be prepared. Studying the laws is just as, if not more, important than remembering to put bullets in your gun. One misstep by you reflects negatively on all of us.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/

That is my go to when I'm traveling and need to brush up on the local gun laws. I find it really interesting to see how much the laws vary from state to state but how they are all also very similar. Whenever I know I'm going into a state, I spend a few minutes reading up. For me its more of a list of places to avoid than what to do. Though knowing if its a duty to disclose state is a pretty big deal.

One other thing: Printing out that flyer is a horrible idea. Those businesses do not care about your rights, logic, or the safety of their customers. Whenever I see a no guns sign, I turn my happy self around and don't look back. Its just not worth your time.

Be safe and good luck!
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Old January 20, 2016, 04:10 PM   #19
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Question

Does anyone know if any business has been sued for NOT having a no gun policy? I don't think any business is obligated to provide "safety" from a shooting....maybe providing non slip flooring, but not for deadly force?
Does anyone know if a self defense shooting in a business that does have a no gun policy has resulted in charges against the shooter....assuming it is a so called "good shoot",according to the laws of that locale?
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