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Old February 4, 2011, 11:54 PM   #1
Bill Akins
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Just won this beauty at auction today.

Just won today at online auction. Still have to have it shipped to me.
It's an A.S.M. (Armi San Marcos) (out of production) 1860 .44.
Gold plated ramrod, screws and cylinder. Nickel plated everywhere else.
Rosewood grips. A real beauty to go with my nickel & gold plated .44 Pietta 1860. I like stainless and also nickel/gold plated revolvers. Less problems with corrosion and they clean up easier too.












Last edited by Bill Akins; February 5, 2011 at 12:43 AM.
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Old February 5, 2011, 12:05 AM   #2
Dr. Strangelove
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Umm.. sure that's an 1858 Remington? Did you maybe post pics of your Colt 1860?

Ah, you fixed it!
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Last edited by Dr. Strangelove; February 5, 2011 at 12:10 AM. Reason: OP fixed his error
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Old February 5, 2011, 12:12 AM   #3
Bill Akins
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Oops my mistake. It's a 1860 ASM .44
That's why it will go well with my nickel & gold 1860 Pietta.
I'm bidding on another ASM which IS an 1858 Remy and matches the nickel and gold of my above 1860 Colt clone. I was thinking about the Remy when I wrote about the above ASM 1860 Colt clone. Thinking about one revolver while writing about another one causes mistakes! .

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Old February 5, 2011, 12:20 AM   #4
Dr. Strangelove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Akins
Thinking about one revolver while writing about another one causes mistakes! Lol.
Just don't call them by the wrong name in the "heat of the moment"...
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Old February 5, 2011, 12:34 AM   #5
Bill Akins
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I get your point. Like a woman Remy or Colt might get jealous!

"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. They are a revolver they are a gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. Can't decide which one I like better, of two fine revolvers that fit in my leather". By me.

It is impossible to choose. You simply have to have both...and sometimes multiples of both . I admit it. I am a black powder revolver polygamist.
There is a whole community of us forming in Utah. Lol






.

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Old February 5, 2011, 06:01 AM   #6
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Bill

I am not a fan of engraving on revolvers but I must say that one is very well executed.

Nice find.
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:05 PM   #7
bedbugbilly
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Bill - I was watching that one (I didn't have an interest in it but thought it was nice). I've dealt with the seller a number of times - not only in purchasing but right now I'm selling some of my collection on consignment through them. They are terrific folks. I think you got a good deal and it will go well with the other ones you have pictured. I've got two ASMs - a '61 Colt Navy and a '62 Colt Pocket Police - both are very nice and I love them. Congrats on your "new baby" - enjoy!
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:56 PM   #8
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Qweshun for the gold/silver plated toys. Is the plating over brass or steel? I have heard both ways, so if it is plated on either sub-metal, how does one tell?
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:58 PM   #9
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if it is plated on either sub-metal, how does one tell?
With a magnet. I think most plated frames are brass.
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Old February 5, 2011, 05:22 PM   #10
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A magnet will also attract nickel, just not as vigorously as a steel frame. I agree that most factory nickeled guns these days are brass framed.
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Old February 5, 2011, 05:37 PM   #11
okiefarmer
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So if buying via one of the popular auction sites, one would just have to take the word of the seller, if he/she did not know for sure. Oft times the sellers of some BP don't now diddly about the firearm, they were just told what it should bring.
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Old February 5, 2011, 07:40 PM   #12
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Okiefarmer wrote:
Qweshun for the gold/silver plated toys. Is the plating over brass or steel? I have heard both ways, so if it is plated on either sub-metal, how does one tell?

I believe the nickel is not plated directly over either brass or steel, but that a coating of copper is first laid down over either the brass or steel and then the nickel is plated over the copper. Not having a plating kit, I couldn't say for sure first hand. That's just what I've read.

I have no idea whether my nickel plated revolvers are brass or steel under their nickel. I have read that most nickel plated BP revolver frames are brass underneath. But not necessarily, because my barrel isn't brass and it is nickel plated too correct? I've seen lots of cartridge 1873 peacemakers that are steel but are nickel plated. So I don't think it is necessarily a given that just because a BP revolver is nickel plated that its frame is brass. I haven't done the magnet test yet.

On gold plating I'm not sure if copper has to be under the gold or not. But I don't think so because on my Pietta 1860 .44, about 3/4's of the gold plating on the face of my cylinder has blown away from the explosions. A little has blown away around the edges of the cylinder too. And I don't see any copper underneath but only see the bare steel. I called Traditions to ask about the gold blowing off and customer service told me they had a few people have that problem. My cylinder is fluted and unfortunately they didn't have any gold plated fluted cylinders in stock. But they sent me a brand new non fluted cylinder that was gold plated...FOR FREE! That's some good customer service at Traditions! I don't shoot that new cylinder and just keep it for when I want to show the revolver.

But it doesn't really matter to me if my frames are brass or steel, because I don't shoot heavy loads in them so if my recoil shield internal ring is brass under the nickel, it likely won't wear away and my frame won't warp either using light loads. If I ever do shoot it enough to cause my internal recoil shield's ring to wear, I can always make a ring out of steel and attach it over the old shield's ring. That's a common fix. Steel frames are definitely stronger and therefore better, but brass frames shooting light loads are not bad either.

Quote:
Okiefarmer wrote:
So if buying via one of the popular auction sites, one would just have to take the word of the seller, if he/she did not know for sure. Oft times the sellers of some BP don't now diddly about the firearm, they were just told what it should bring.
Yep. "You buys your ticket and you takes your chances". With the confidence that if something small is broken or needs tweaking, you can fix it yourself. Usually you can and if you carefully look at the auction photos they can sometimes tell you a wealth about the revolver. If I'm really interested, I copy the photos from the auction and then blow them up in photoshop and brighten and contrast them to see the revolver's details better. You'd be surprised how much more you can see when you blow them up. Flaws you couldn't see in the smaller pics show up when you blow up the pic and brighten and contrast it. Then you will see dinged nipples, non polished casting marks, poor parts edge alignments, ill fitting grips, corrosion, scratches, etc, that you wouldn't ordinarily see.

All you can do is base your decision to bid on what the auction ad says, what the feedback is on the seller, what the revolver looks like in the photos, (and your own blown up brightened and contrasted photos) and your confidence in fixing just about anything that can break on it yourself. Also helps to know where to scrounge parts for out of production revolvers like ASM's. Some Pietta parts will work on ASM's, other Pietta parts won't and you have to get the ASM parts from Deercreek or VTI or else make them yourself. So far I haven't gotten any junk yet from the auctions....knock on wood.

You are certainly correct that many times the seller will have very little knowledge about that revolver or even black powder revolvers in general. I was looking at an ad on proxibid the other day, and they were listing a Rogers and Spencer revolver as an 1858 Remington. Lol. I am bidding on an 1858 Remy right now on gunbroker that they are listing as a Colt! Lol.
Even if the seller is knowledgeable, you can't rely on that. It is up to us to make sure WE are knowledgeable about what we are buying.
Ultimately it's..."Caveat Emptor".....latin for....."let the buyer beware".



.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; February 5, 2011 at 08:31 PM.
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Old February 5, 2011, 08:28 PM   #13
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That grip looks shorter and fatter than an 1860; almost like a '51 Navy grip. I have an ASM that was billed as a 44 cal 1861 Navy but was a '60 upper with Navy grips. Some original Colts were fitted with Navy grips by request.
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Old February 5, 2011, 08:40 PM   #14
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I've heard about the Italians swapping parts around to facilitate and lessen the expense of production Hellgate. Seems to be a common thing. Just like there are no "navy" .44's. All real "navy" Colts were .36 cal and only the "army" Colts were .44 cals. Yet the Italians make .44 "Navy's" Lol. I've also heard of them using the main frame from one revolver on another revolver and the same with the grip frames like you mentioned. The Italians have swapped parts around so much and made models that never existed to the point that I don't even worry about it anymore. I just look at the gun and if I like it, I buy it and if the grips don't fit my hand like I'd like, I might look around for another larger grip frame that will fit me better that will fit my main frame. If not, I'll trade or sell the revolver and get another one that fits my grip better.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old February 5, 2011, 09:05 PM   #15
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"I have an ASM that was billed as a 44 cal 1861 Navy but was a '60 upper with Navy grips."

Hellgate,

A .44 '61 Navy IS a '60 upper with Navy grips!
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Old February 5, 2011, 09:43 PM   #16
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Bill,
I share your philosophy of gun choosing. My first and favorite pair of C&Bs are '51 "Navies" in 44 cal with the octagon barrels. I wanted the feel, grip and balance of the navy with the knockdown of the 44s so I got just what I wanted in them. Authenticity be damned, hooray for marketing and filling a demand.

Junkman,
I guess the only other thing they could have called it would be an 1860 Navy. I keep it as a backup in case one of my .44 '51s break down during a match as it has the same grip although a different balance.
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Old February 6, 2011, 04:40 AM   #17
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Doc Hoy wrote:
Bill
I am not a fan of engraving on revolvers but I must say that one is very well executed.

Nice find.
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Thanks Doc. I thought the engraving was well done too.

Polished stainless or nickel or nickel/gold plated revolvers are my favorites. If in polished stainless or nickel or gold plated, the metal is usually more smooth than on a blued revolver. Consequently fouling cleans off very easily from such a smooth surface. Also corrosion doesn't have any microscopic pits or grain to the metal to get started in since with polished stainless the grain of the metal has been polished out to a completely smooth surface and with nickel plating the grain of the metal has been filled in with the plating making it smooth too. Stainless never needs a cold blue holster wear touch-up other than if it get a bit scratched and then the polishing wheel fixes that quickly. Pretty much the same for nickel plated. The worst that can happen to the nickel is over time with use, it can flake off in a few small spots. But even then that is usually minimal and can be touched up by someone with a plating kit or a local jeweler. Engraving makes for more surface for corrosion to start, but the plating precludes it getting started.


In the past I've had a wide variety of blued black powder revolvers, and every one of them was always a constant fight against corrosion no matter how well I cleaned them. The blue cylinders and barrels always wound up turning browned because the blue would wear off from holster wear and me shooting, handling and cleaning them. I'd touch them up with some cold blue and fine steel wool and they always came out looking browned instead of deep dark blue. Now some folks like that antique brown "patina" look, and I am okay with it too but it isn't my primary preference. I like my revolvers smooth and shiny, easy to clean and looking good much longer no matter how much wear or shooting I put them through. It's just ma thang .

p.s.
Once in the early '80's I freshly cold blued the barrel and cylinder on a well used brass framed Griswald & Gunnison repro and then sprayed it with clear polyurethane. Now that DID keep that barrel and cylinder nice and deep black/blue (and shiny too) for a long time and it made the barrel and cylinder very smooth too and easier to clean of fouling. Eventually the explosions did away with the clear polyurethane around the cylinder face and the very end edge of the barrel, but the rest of the outside of the cylinder as well as the barrel stayed looking real nice. Not exactly a "purist" thing to do, but it actually worked very well for me. But with stainless or nickel I don't even have to do that.

.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; February 6, 2011 at 05:14 AM.
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Old February 6, 2011, 05:09 AM   #18
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Bedbugbilly wrote:
Bill - I was watching that one (I didn't have an interest in it but thought it was nice). I've dealt with the seller a number of times - not only in purchasing but right now I'm selling some of my collection on consignment through them. They are terrific folks. I think you got a good deal and it will go well with the other ones you have pictured. I've got two ASMs - a '61 Colt Navy and a '62 Colt Pocket Police - both are very nice and I love them. Congrats on your "new baby" - enjoy!
Thanks Billy. It's good to know the seller is a quality one. I agree with you and think I got a good deal too, compared to what a new one like that would cost.
Thanks for the congrats, can't wait to get it shipped and start shooting it.

What do you have on consignment with them Billy? Any stainless or plated BP revolvers?


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old February 6, 2011, 06:39 AM   #19
Doc Hoy
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Shiney Revolvers

Bill,

Perhaps you followed the rehab of that 1860 from ASM and what I found during that evolution was that if you really get the finish of the part to a high lustre, it is a little harder to get the blue to take to the surface. Probably every other person who has blued a piece of metal already knows that but I just found it out.
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Old February 6, 2011, 09:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
I have no idea whether my nickel plated revolvers are brass or steel under their nickel. I have read that most nickel plated BP revolver frames are brass underneath. But not necessarily, because my barrel isn't brass and it is nickel plated too correct? I've seen lots of cartridge 1873 peacemakers that are steel but are nickel plated. So I don't think it is necessarily a given that just because a BP revolver is nickel plated that its frame is brass. I haven't done the magnet test yet.
A small magnet well tell you real fast if it's brass or steel frame. I have several nickle plated C&B'ers, more are steel than brass.

Steel Colt


Steel Navy Arms.


Brass "Pinto" ASM
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Old February 6, 2011, 10:07 AM   #21
junkman_01
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A magnet will also attract nickel, just not as vigorously as a steel frame. I do not agree. Most factory nickeled guns these days are brass framed.
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Old February 6, 2011, 03:55 PM   #22
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You never know what metal the frame may be made of. I recently posted about the non-magnetic ASM 1858 linked below that surprisingly had a stainless frame. The action parts will show some magnetism through to the frame exterior. But a magnet placed on the forward part of a Remy frame will help to prove if the frame is truly magnetic or not.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=stainless

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Old February 6, 2011, 11:29 PM   #23
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Doc Hoy wrote:
Perhaps you followed the rehab of that 1860 from ASM and what I found during that evolution was that if you really get the finish of the part to a high lustre, it is a little harder to get the blue to take to the surface. Probably every other person who has blued a piece of metal already knows that but I just found it out.
I sure did follow it, you did a great job on that Doc. I've tried a few things like heating up the revolver to get the molecules and pores of the metal to open up a bit to take the bluing better. Sometimes it seems to help the bluing take a little better. At least to get a good first coat started. Stinks pretty bad when I apply the bluing to the hot metal though.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; February 6, 2011 at 11:39 PM.
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Old February 12, 2011, 01:58 PM   #24
poppa59hd
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You can say all you want about his new fancy, plated, engraved pistol. I just happen to think the darned thing is too pretty to dirty up by shooting it! Enjoy your new pistol.
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Old February 12, 2011, 02:25 PM   #25
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Poppa59HD wrote:
"You can say all you want about his new fancy, plated, engraved pistol. I just happen to think the darned thing is too pretty to dirty up by shooting it! Enjoy your new pistol."
Thanks Poppa, I will enjoy it. Although it's a pretty one, it isn't really that expensive of a collectible piece. I have to resist the urge to not shoot it because it is too pretty. That would be like marrying the beauty queen and then never consummating the marriage because she was too pretty! Lol. I'm going to have fun shooting it when it gets shipped to me.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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